Posted - 8/6/2012 9:37:18 PM | show profile | flag this post
orthicon, my friend;
I'll take a stab at it, and since we usually agree on other topics please take this in the respectful manner I'm presenting it...
"i'd agree with stricter gun laws once we have tried.and PROVEN we have tried, to enforce the already existing laws he do have on the books.."
Aren't you asking for proof that, by it's very nature, we can't have, because the PROOF is the crime that doesn't happen??
I can't prove to you that THAT plane didn't fall from the sky because of the good mechanics it had doing good maintenance it had. We can prove however, or at least assume with great certainty--later--after another plane fell from the sky--that had no maintenance at all--Gee? Wonder what happened?
Here's the point (that the NRA and it's supporters just don't get)We don't know how many mass shootings are prevented by honest gun dealers who refuse to sell to someone who is obviously. visibly, unbalanced. Background checks also weed out some undesirables no one wants to walk away with a an AK with a high capacity clip.
Understanding all that, then WHY do we allow some good, understandable, reasonable gun laws to exist in SOME circumstances, but not all?? Well you can't buy a fully automatic machine gun!! That's a myth donchaknow!! No...it's not, it's depends on the circumstance. A crazed teenager can't buy thousands of rounds of ammo!! Yes, he can, depending on the circumstances.
To me, the constant refrain of 'We already have thousands of laws on the books now...and if that's not enough, what makes you think new ones will help??' ULTIMATE cop-out. NOT reality. The strictest laws have to be universal or the whole system falls apart. It would be like murder, bank robbery, and kidnapping is illegal in Illionois--but not Iowa.
Take the best, the strongest, the most restrictive 'keep the guns away from the bad guys and the mental patients' laws you can find--than apply that nationwide--THAT makes sense.
Posted - 8/7/2012 12:10:04 AM | show profile | flag this post
And gun shows
...near as I can tell, are a free-for-all.
Posted - 8/7/2012 12:58:32 AM | show profile | flag this post
you CAN'T tell.
Posted - 8/7/2012 1:07:09 AM | show profile | flag this post
yeah, v..they are a zoo..
anyone who believes that people selling guns at weekend shows are ALL law-abiding federally licensed dealers is living full-time on another planet..
anyone who believes that ALL gun dealers faithfully observe whatever mandated waiting period there might be in their state is obviously the next door neighbor of the first guy..
it will take money and political will to rigidly enforce the laws lwe have..
the money can be found..the political will?..not so much..
Posted - 8/7/2012 2:24:23 AM | show profile | flag this post
Sikhs or Muslims?
All the press and commentary I've seen so far is assuming that this clown must have mistaken these Sikhs for Muslims due to the fact that they wear turbans (or headcoverings) and have beards.
So tell me, would his crimes have been somehow less appalling and unforgivable had he shot up a mosque whose congregation was at worship? Because that certainly seems to be the subtext I'm seeing.
For the record, a mass shooting people because of what they look like is completely unforgivable; irrespective of what form of God they worship.
Posted - 8/7/2012 2:28:42 AM | show profile | flag this post
i thnk you're misreading the subtext..
i suspect this bozo was after anyone NOT a white anglo-saxon protestant..
coulda been muslioms, buddhists, african-americans, shintoists..whatever the hellnhis twisted mind saw in front of his sights..
just happened to be sikhs..
Posted - 8/7/2012 8:46:23 AM | show profile | flag this post
If I may offer...
A couple of observations. You guys are correct about gun shows, I would like to see requirements that every gun sold at a gun show be properly registered. How about placing ATF officers at the exits and no weapons leaves the premises without proper registration?
I think orthicon is on the right track here. We don't need more gun laws just better enforcement of the ones we have.
One last observation, the real culprit here is "hate". People hating, not just disliking but total hatred, because they are different is the real problem that leads to this kind of violence. I truly wished we could start dealing with that instead of focusing on inanimate objects. Just my two cents worth.
Posted - 8/7/2012 9:50:32 AM | show profile | flag this post
And another shooting last night
In Detroit, with seven injured.
Posted - 8/7/2012 10:53:07 AM | show profile | flag this post
I was waiting for it
and someone brought up the ridiculous notion of registering fiearms. This is absolutely unnecessary. The ONLY thing registration would accomplish is to give anti-gun zealots the addresses of every gun they itch to ban altogether along with the names of the owners.
Simply expanding the national instant check system to include EVERY firearm sale...even private ones...would drive the bad guys away because they would NOT be approved for purchase.
No registration required...therefore no "lists" that rabid left wingers could use to disarm the American public...and they would, sooner or later. You can take that to the bank.
Posted - 8/7/2012 11:09:52 AM | show profile | flag this post
Like this country, which has more guns in ownership than there are people...would just lay down their weapons and say "sure, here's my gun." There would be thousands, maybe tens of thousands, who would fight to the death to keep their guns. There would be armed insurrection to overthrow any administration that would try to seize private weapons.
And here's something you folks who suggest government might come to get our guns never seem to factor into it: the folks whose job it would be to come get your weapons are your armed neighbors--cops, sheriff's departments, departments of public safety. Nearly all of them probably believe in what you believe: the right to own a weapon. A HUGE percentage of them would not go at gunpoint, risking their lives and killing their neighbors in the commission of doing something they don't believe in anyway (taking your weapon away).
That kind of speculation is grist for NRA fundraising, but it's nearly devoid of common sense.
Posted - 8/7/2012 12:04:57 PM | show profile | flag this post
Count on it
Whenever a valid point is made in opposition to a leftist viewpoint, there will be contradiction, exaggeration, hyperbole, subject changes and outright unntruth in an attempt to take the focus off of the issue.
But you CAN take this to the bank: If firearm registration is ever implemented, radical left wingers WILL eventually try to confiscate every firearm in private possession. No amount of smoke, mirrors or arm-waving can change that fact...and that's why we with rational outlooks are so adamantly opposed to registration.
If gun confiscation ever occurs, you left wingers won't have us to save your asses from the bad guys...and the cops won't show up until it's all over. All they'll do is take reports.
Posted - 8/7/2012 12:36:08 PM | show profile | flag this post
First, both my cars are registered and as long as I pay my payments and my taxes no one is going to come and get them.
Second, I want the serial numbers on all my weapons listed somewhere. That way if they are ever stolen anyone trying to sell them to a Pawn Shop or at a gun show would get caught and I might get my gun back.
It rings of real paranoia to think the US government would trample all over the Constitution to kick down doors and confiscate weapons. Careful about that kind of thinking, that leads to a deep rooted fear of the government. And we know where that can lead.
|it's just tv folks||
Posted - 8/7/2012 12:48:55 PM | show profile | flag this post
I can't disagree with anything you posted (not that I want to disagree with you).
Thank you for that post.
I'm sorry I used your name.
Posted - 8/7/2012 1:22:19 PM | show profile | flag this post
The only things
I have a deep rooted fear of is gun-grabbers...and those who would enable them.
Unless you have a "deep rooted" interest in this topic...and study it extensively...you may not be aware of the zeal, secrecy, chcanery, etc., with which gun-grabbers opreate...and their allies who would surface in the government were it ever perceived that an anti-firearms sentiment was on the rise. One only has to look to Washington, DC, California, Chicago, New York City, etc., for confirmation.
Posted - 8/7/2012 1:24:59 PM | show profile | flag this post
You're all crazy and f*cked.
I really cant even begin to say how bizarre this thread .. even the "moderate" agreement ... looks to as a non-american, outsider.
Forget the comparative, international, peer-reviewed, and non-partisan, studies prove gun control works.
Forget the explicit racism of this shooting, and the implicit racism of islamophobia that breeds hate in your country.
Forget the pain, and suffering, and loss and heartbreak and wasted future of each and every life ended because of "the right to bear" automatic and semi-automatic weapons and anything else considered "arms" in the US of A.
This is so off the baseline of debate in the international community and other counties, i don't know where to begin.
you might want to start with responses from other nations in similar situations.
Australia, banning auto and semi auto outright with a mandatory buyback after the Tasmania slaughter.
Canada, outlawing auto and semis, and implementing registration after the Montreal Massacre.
And then lets go to Anders Brievik, the accused Norwegian shooter, who allegedly hunted down young "liberals" because of their "pro-Islam' multiculturalism.
Norway has tough gun laws. Guess what Breiveik says?
Breivik's manifesto described his purchase of 10 30-round ammunition magazines from a U.S. supplier who mailed the devices to him: "10 x 30 round magazines - .223 cal at 34 USD per mag. Had to buy through a smaller US supplier (who again ordered from other suppliers) as most suppliers have export limitations… Total cost: 550 USD."
In a section called, "How much ammo does a soldier bring to a battle?" Breivik cited a need for high-capacity "banana clips."
Breivik wrote that he failed to acquire certain weapons illegally in the Czech Republic.
"I have now sent an application for a Ruger Mini 14 semi-automatic rifle (5.56). It is the most 'army like' rifle allowed in Norway, although it is considered a 'poor man's' AR-15. I envy our European American brothers as the gun laws in Europe sucks [expletive] in comparison."
So why is Milwaukee and Colorado and Giffords and Columbine all such a big shock and surprise to y'all?
America doest just have a problem wit gun death.
It exports it.
The only difference is that the rest of the world at least tries to do something about it.
Posted - 8/7/2012 7:26:29 PM | show profile | flag this post
It turns out that
guns are NOT the problem. The problem is how to deal with people who seem to be predisposed to these kinds of crimes.
The Los Angeles Times reports that Wade Michael Page, the alleged Sikh temple shooter, had come under federal scrutiny a couple different times and had been tracked by the Anti-Defamation League and the Souther Poverty Law Center for several years. He was reportedly a low-level member of a white supremacy group and was associated with at least two skinhead bands.
The problem was he had never broken the law...which would have been a requirement for the government taking any action or even opening a dossier on him.
We can thank the very groups and individuals who are screaming the loudest about banning guns for this. Because they don't want to deal with potentially dangerous people their efforts are directed toward banning firearms...and thus depriving law abiding citizens of the right to hunt, engage in competitive target shooting, protect themselves and their families, etc.
Posted - 8/7/2012 7:39:37 PM | show profile | flag this post
"guns are NOT the problem"
And what do guns kill? People!
We simply need to make it easier for more people to get more guns.
Posted - 8/7/2012 10:15:11 PM | show profile | flag this post
A few contradictions here;
(blackedtape) "I think orthicon is on the right track here. We don't need more gun laws just better enforcement of the ones we have." Okay....."I would like to see requirements that every gun sold at a gun show be properly registered. How about placing ATF officers at the exits and no weapons leaves the premises without proper registration?" Bada Bing. That's a SENSIBLE new law.
See? If you just drop back ten yards and think about it, we can all come up with new sensible gun laws. You just did it. The NRA was fighting tooth and nail against even recording massive gun sales from point A to point B. Why? How on Earth is it violating you Second Amed rights if the government knows that 7,000 AKs or Uzis went from New Orleans to Houston??
cruise?? "I was waiting for it and someone brought up the ridiculous notion of registering fiearms. This is absolutely unnecessary."
WHY?? Seriously, WHY?? Are you so friggin paranoid that you see this as a way for Obama to take your guns?? Then you're just another brainless LaPointe robot. We register everything from cars to surgical implants. Organ donors. Voters. Purchasers of electric stoves.
"The ONLY thing registration would accomplish is to give anti-gun zealots the addresses of every gun they itch to ban altogether along with the names of the owners." Ooooooooooooooooooh. I'm also terrified that since Sears has my registered tires, someday, they're going to come after me.
Get. A. Life. Outside of the NRA paranoia. The Black Helicopters aren't going to land in your back yard. We just think it's a good idea to have you friggin weapon listed somewhere IF it's used in a crime. NO responsible gun owner should have a problem with that.
Again, we're back to blackedtape as an example of a conservative with working brain cells. As compared to; "If firearm registration is ever implemented, radical left wingers WILL eventually try to confiscate every firearm in private possession."
JEEZ. How do you manage to crawl out of Mom's basement in the morning to get a coffee? This isn't just paranoia, it's psychotic. And grossly ignorant of American History I might add. You've bought into the NRA crap hook line and sinker. "you may not be aware of the zeal, secrecy, chcanery, etc., with which gun-grabbers opreate...
JEEZ again, and just, WOW. For the umpteenth time, either take your meds, or seek help.
Posted - 8/8/2012 12:03:49 AM | show profile | flag this post
You're wired up so differently
you cannot see the obvious. And you reflexively ignore that which supports a viewpoint that contradicts your own. It would be pointless for me to try any further logic on you. You almost...ALMOST...fit the category of rabid gun grabber.
Posted - 8/8/2012 12:38:16 PM | show profile | flag this post
And your disingenuous bullsh*t
about having firearms "listed somewhere in case they're used in a crime" is just that...disingnuous bullsh*t. The incidence of legally-acquired firearms being used in crimes is so low as to be well below the noise...statistically insignificant. That is unless they're stolen, which puts them into an entirely different category in which having the name and address of the legal acquirer would serve NO purpose whatever.
The simple fact is bad guys don't get their firearms from legal sources...unless there are VERY large loopholes in acquisition procedures. And private sales without NICS checks may well fit into that category.
But even NICS realizes that keeping the names and addresses of APPROVED acquirere is pointless and such records are destroyed after six months.
The ONLY reason left wingers want a permanent record of where every single firearm in America resides is so thay can confiscate them just as soon as the climate is right...and, believe me, the Brady bunch, VPC and a whole host of other rabid gun-grabber groups are working very hard on that.
Posted - 8/8/2012 2:31:28 PM | show profile | flag this post
You're having a tough time
...distinguishing between fantasy and reality.
--Reality: there are, and will always be, some people who would like to seize all privately-held guns.
--Reality: there are far more guns in the US than there are people, and legislating guns out of existence, then seizing them from their owners will happen only after Mitt Romney embraces and idea...then sticks with it for more than a few weeks (i.e. it will never happen).
--Fantasy: just because the NRA says they're coming for your guns...doesn't mean they're coming for your guns. That's called target marketing. You're the target, and they're marketing to you.
Posted - 8/8/2012 2:56:40 PM | show profile | flag this post
I have no hope
that left wingers will ever stop deluding themselves. But I've studied and written about this topic for so many years I know what I'm talking about.