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"I don't want my government doing this."
Posted - 6/9/2013 5:07:23 PM | show profile | flag this post
all the hatred one would expect from a rabid partisan.
Posted - 6/9/2013 6:43:20 PM | show profile | flag this post
It's not a sterotype
If that's ACTUALLY what they say.
Rush says this crap constantly: "In fact, it's almost on par with: "I hope he fails." How does that sound now, by the way: "I hope he fails"? I'm constantly looking for ways here to persuade people of what I passionately believe, and I'm not in it to lie to anybody. There's nothing to be gained by lying to you about what I really think" I'm not lying. It's a quote.
Beck often says: "America Becoming Worse than Nazi Germany & 'The Most Evil Nation in the History of the World'. (REALLY?!??!) Popular wingnut jock Rick Wiles: Obama Is Head of 'Modern Day Nazi Regime' and the 'Fourth Beast' of the Apocalypse'. We still have BatShitBachmann and her "9/11 and Benghazi Were God's Judgment"...and you get all insulted ovr "rationalized, partisan responses"?
And I'M stereotyped??
Posted - 6/9/2013 8:32:47 PM | show profile | flag this post
Y'see, you're ALWAYS trying to justify
your partisan rationalizations by attempting to compare them to something someone else said.
To me that shows an incredible timidity and weakness of character.
Posted - 6/9/2013 9:10:19 PM | show profile | flag this post
I like to use peoples own inane ridiculous quotes against them--to show everyone how foolish and crazy they sound. Beck and Rush and Breitbart and far far right radio jocks fill the bill nicely.
But then so do you. Starting 'another-I-Hate-Obama-topic' one after the other--after the other--posting all the time--while being on a "self-imposed absence".
Why not give that vacation another shot?
Posted - 6/9/2013 9:14:20 PM | show profile | flag this post
*** Why not give that vacation another shot? ***
Hear, hear -- and take all your screen names with you.
Posted - 6/10/2013 8:45:21 AM | show profile | flag this post
I'm just not that smart
So I want to be certain I am clear on a couple of points here. Government intrusion into the personal, private lives is ok because they are doing it to everyone and Congress said it was Ok. And only those people who are communicating with terrorists should care except of course for those who are paranoid.
If that truly is what you guys are saying then let me be perfectly clear, I could not disagree more with any of that. That is the complete opposite of the principles this country was founded upon IMHO. Security at the cost of freedom is not a fair trade ever. And this is a perfect example of a bad law with a good name passed without anyone having the slightest idea what was in the law. As more of the true ramifications of the Patriot Act become public you can expect a shift in support and the calls for its repeal will become louder until our Fourth Amendment rights are restored.
Posted - 6/10/2013 10:23:14 AM | show profile | flag this post
You're worried about the government scanning phone numbers to see whether you're talking with terrorists? Then quit talking with terrorists.
And therein lies the problem. According to DHS, every single one of us is a terrorist.
Pay in cash? You're a terrorist.
Use a coffee grinder? You're a terrorist.
Buy food in bulk? You're a terrorist.
Don't tell the cashier your phone number/zip code when getting diapers? You're a terrorist.
Don't have a Facebook page? You're a terrorist.
Have a gun? You're a terrorist.
I think that covers everyone who posts here.
The list goes on and on.
The problem with the "if you're not doing anything wrong you don't need to worry" argument is that the definition of "wrong" is subjective. And subject to change on any given day.
One estimate I heard re law breaking is that 50% of Americans commit a felony every day. Simply because of the sheer volume and complexity (stupidity) of laws on the books today.
There is no need for 100% surveillance. I still fail to see how it helps "identify" terrorists. You still need proof/suspicion to begin collecting relevant information. Without it, all you have is numbers.
Posted - 6/10/2013 11:02:47 AM | show profile | flag this post
The biggest problem with the NSA's data collection scheme
is that it is inherently prone to abuse.
Over the last several decades we've often read or heard of government data collection programs that were designed to a single purpose being perverted by aggressive investigators and used for completely unrelated purposes. Law enforcement going after pornographers in the Internet is a perfect example. While the goal was laudable, the method was clearly abusive...and arguably illegal.
And many times these abuses are approved by agency heads and even judges.
Here is an interesting take on the topic of surveillance by the Harvard Law Review:
It only takes one investigator or one judge to rationalize that as long as the government has this data it won't hurt to use it for Purpose X along with rooting out potential terrorists. Once that occurs all control is lost as that will be used as the precedent for granting other uses.
Everyone in the the world should be scared sh*tless by what's going on.
Posted - 6/10/2013 11:34:08 AM | show profile | flag this post
NSA claims it has
the know-how to ensure there is no illegal spying. And the cited article purports to assure Americans that is the case:
But the algorithms referenced in the article are the very things that permit unauthorized...or wrongfully authorized...spying. All it takes is for a judge or rogue investigator to permit the insertion of a new algorithm...or a change to an existing algorithm...and the computer (which cannot think for itself but blindly follows the program) will dutifully spit out the newly-requested contents.
THIS PROGRAM MUST BE MONITORED BY A BLUE RIBBON PANEL COMPOSED OF SECURITY EXPERTS, INTELLIGENCE EXPERTS AND MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC. Even then there is scant assurance that someone...somewhere...sometime...will not cause a breach of the public trust by wrongful use of the data.
Posted - 6/10/2013 11:40:01 AM | show profile | flag this post
Glad to see cruzo...
coming over to the left on this issue. Heck, even Rush is rushing to the left on it!
This sort of data mining has been opposed by Democrats since it began under W. And the SAME Democrats who opposed it then, are vocally opposed to it NOW.
I can remember when cruzo defended this sort of thing as necessary for the "war on terror" (whatever that was supposed to be).
Glad to see he's following the majority of the country in moving to the left!
Posted - 6/10/2013 12:06:06 PM | show profile | flag this post
I'm not moving anywhere
and I certainly do not advocate a cessation of data collection. I'm just decrying such a massive and all-encompassing effort, and warning of the weaknesses that are inherent in such an enterprise and some of the controls that MUST be implemented in order to prevent...or minimize...misuse.
The collection of data MUST have a compelling purpose and must be limited to that which will fulfill that purpose. And we cannot rely on a single agency or body to determine what is legitimate...especially if that body is operating in secrecy without oversight or control...and that includes input from the American people. Anything else inexorably leads to the kinds of abuses of which I warned.
I'd like to believe that our government is capable of protecting us without unduly invading our privacy. Unfortunately, repeated experiences have confirmed that without the kinds of controls I am advocating, data collection agencies cannot self-regulate.
Posted - 6/10/2013 12:52:11 PM | show profile | flag this post
And I should have included
the government in the list of agencies that cannot self-regulate.
Posted - 6/10/2013 12:53:38 PM | show profile | flag this post
"This sort of data mining has been opposed by Democrats since it began under W. And the SAME Democrats who opposed it then, are vocally opposed to it NOW."
obama still a democrat? he was against bush policy before he was for and expanding bush policy.
Grateful Deadline Posted - Rush is an entertainer. That's all he is -- a disk jockey, college dropout, MLB promoter, race-baiter and prescription-drug abuser with no political expertise. He got lucky by tapping into a vein of angry white male listeners. He's a nobody made famous by his big mouth. That's it. He has all the substance of Snooki.
why would obama and the rest of the left be so obsessed with a snooki like character ?
Posted - 6/10/2013 1:11:41 PM | show profile | flag this post
Where WERE you people in 2001?!?!?
Were you all actually this "scared sh*tless " about Big Brother Bush setting up the Patriot Act, the DHS, etc etc. I must have missced all those howls of protest from the Right.
blackedtape: "Government intrusion into the personal, private lives is ok because..." YES. IT IS. If it's legal (warrants and such). The ACLU didn't defend John Gotti against his FBI wiretaps because he was one of the BAD GUYS. "complete opposite of the principles this country was founded upon" No it's not. Besides the fact that free speech has legal limits (be it the US Mail, the Internet, or the street corner)...how is the NSA looking at my phone number--which is PUBLISHED in the phone book--an intrusion? When my phone number calls a known suspects phone number--That's not an intrusion. It's police work.
beenthere? PLEASE tell us where you got "According to DHS, every single one of us is a terrorist." because of a coffee grinder usage or not having a Facebook page or buying food in bulk. Please show me those laws.
cruise? [The NSA Program] is "inherently prone to abuse". So??
I can't think of a Gov program that isn't prone to abuse. Food Stamps. Unemployment. Tax shelters. 5014c political groups. Giving a politician the title and authority of Commander In Chief so he can start a war for personal reasons. You can see where this could go...
"I certainly do not advocate a cessation of data collection" Well then, stop doing it. "The collection of data MUST have a compelling purpose" Tha's where the FISA warrants come in.
"cannot rely on a single agency or body to determine what is legitimate...especially if that body is operating in secrecy without oversight or control..." Are you the ONLY one left who has not heard from Republican Congressmen who oversee this kind of intelligence and agree with the secrecy, and agree with the oversight, and have admitted terrorists plots HAVE been foiled?
God forbid we would have another 9/11 scal attack. Does anyone really think that the first words out of wingnuts mouths wouldn't be 'SEE!! Told Ya!! Obama didn't do what he could to keep us safe!!'
Posted - 6/10/2013 1:27:52 PM | show profile | flag this post
When you stop your all-too-typical
hyperbole and deliberate misstatement we can talk. Until then I will not respond. I cannot dignify your dishonesty by engaging with you.
Posted - 6/10/2013 2:12:29 PM | show profile | flag this post
"Until then I will not respond"
Oh, if only that could be true. Like your "self-imposed absence" thread which is now up to 284 posts--just oozing with "hyperbole and deliberate misstatement", gossip, op-eds, fact-less rants, and de-bunked garbage (did you ever take back that Doug Shulman/157 WH meetings btw?)
As for you accusing me of "deliberate misstatement" and "dishonesty" on this thread--Please show all of us your examples. Or shut up and go back on vacation.
Posted - 6/10/2013 2:49:55 PM | show profile | flag this post
And for etwink
The "majority of the country" is NOT moving to the left. It is calling for increased oversight and accountability from agencies that surveil data from Internet service providers, telephone companies, etc.
The "majority of the country" sees surveillance as a useful tool in preventing terrorism...but also sees a huge potential for abuse without controls and effective, impartial oversight.
Posted - 6/10/2013 5:44:40 PM | show profile | flag this post
Do you own flashlights? Or pay with cash instead of a credit card? And do grocery shopping for the week? I do. You probably do – and guess what, according to the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI, that could make both of us terrorists.
Recently, a Department of Homeland Security video has been making its way around the Internet; it tells people in no mixed terms that “paying cash is suspicious and weird.” In an assertive, yet calm voice, the narrator tells viewers that, “if a patron appears nervous or anxious, or insists on paying cash, contact security personnel. This IS suspicious behavior.”
So basically, if you’ve had a stressful day and don’t have a credit card, you're done for.
In a December 27, 2010 “Roll Call Release,” the DHS informed law enforcement and first responders that they should be on the lookout for certain people; but it’s not gun owning patriots or citizen journalists; it’s coffee drinkers and scientists.
We’ve already concluded that ‘other suspicious activity’ could be owning guns, practicing citizen journalism, and taking about pork; so what are these new ‘indicators’ that police, first responders, and average citizens should be on the lookout for?
Well, here’s a full list of these ‘dangerous indicators.’
(U//FOUO) Unusual or unpleasant odors, chemical fires, brightly colored stains, or corroded or rusted metal fixtures in apartments, hotel or motel rooms, self-storage units, or garages.
— (U//FOUO) Unexplained presence of equipment, containers, or material that could be used for radiation shielding or protection, such as lead, concrete, or steel.
— (U//FOUO) Unexplained presence of radiation detection or identification equipment.
— (U//FOUO) Damage to clothing, evidence of serious illness, or injuries such as burns, skin lesions, infections, or missing hands or fingers.
— (U//FOUO) Presence of potential precursors for biological agent production, such as castor beans or bacterial growth materials.
— (U//FOUO) Laboratory equipment such as Bunsen burners, microscopes, and scientific
glassware; personal protective equipment such as masks, goggles, and gloves; household items
such as plant seeds, strainers, coffee grinders, and filters;
and common household chemicals such as acetone located together in places that are unusual, hidden, or disguised.
— (U//FOUO) An individual’s reluctance or inability to explain the presence of toxic chemicals, radioactive materials, biological organisms, or related equipment.
— (U//FOUO) Presence of CBR training manuals, such as The Mujahideen Poisons Handbook or The Anarchist Cookbook.
— (U//FOUO) Chemical containers discarded in dumpsters.
— (U//FOUO) Evidence of unexplained animal deaths.
— (U//FOUO) Security measures that appear inappropriate for the location they protect.
Yep, coffee grinder is in there. Good thing I buy grounds, not beans. Although I do pay in cash, and buy 3 bags if on sale.
Posted - 6/10/2013 6:07:51 PM | show profile | flag this post
beenthere/ You said
Quote: "According to DHS, every single one of us is a terrorist" Unquote.
Nothing in your last post even comes close to saying that anything liek that does it? Show me any sentence or instance where "
Posted - 6/10/2013 6:15:55 PM | show profile | flag this post
Again, if you get off the MSM, you will have already heard this information. The alternative media does a great job of researching and showing gov't documents.
You also may be a terrorist if you use the words hurricane, CDC, exercise and smart.
There is so much out there re how DHS defines "terrorist" and "terrorist behavior" and when you add in:
(as well as car spying, those of you who have OnStar might want to check your service agreement, OnStar has a contract with the gov and can listen in/record at any time, OnStar has immunity and gets PAID for it)
search and seizure without a warrant (as shown in Boston with Feds holding homeowners at gunpoint, throwing them out of their homes) ....
Really anyone of us could be
picked up and detained (NDAA comes in handy)
for any reason at any time and held for any duration.
Will that happen? Eh, probably not. But that horse has left the barn, my friends.
We have NO privacy.
(I won't even get into the common core curriculum implementation and data mining. And don't annoy a cop, you'll get charged with a felony (who defines "annoy"?).)
Posted - 6/10/2013 6:17:58 PM | show profile | flag this post
These are descriptions produced by DHS as to what defines a terrorist, and were provided to show people what to look for when seeking to identify and turn in a terrorist.
If statements from the DHS itself doesn't satisfy you as to what the DHS thinks a terrorist is ...
Posted - 6/10/2013 6:33:51 PM | show profile | flag this post
Two comments, Mpdodgson
First, as you say "as long as it's legal". Well that is the issue here, it may be "legal" under the Patriot Act but is it Constitutional? I and others contend it is not, that a warrant must be specific under the Fourth Amendment. The government did not wiretap every phone call made by telephone customers in New York City, they specifically targeted Gotti. So for the government to run through everyone's phone records looking for certain phone numbers under some kind of wide open blanket warrant is wrong, at least IMHO.
And I think you have things in reverse. When your number shows up on a suspected bad guy's phone then there is a reason to look at you. But to start with everyone's numbers and look for matches is too wide a search. Sort of like strip searching everyone to see what they can find.
As far as my opposition to this prior to now the only thing I can say is I have been so naive it makes me sick. There was no way in my mind that my government would ever violate my privacy in such a manner. How wrong I was.
Posted - 6/11/2013 1:57:23 PM | show profile | flag this post
beenthere, obviously you don't understand the different between repeating and reporting. All you did was quote some half-baked website article making a statement without any factual backup.
In other words, because it's on a website you like, you swallowed an unsubstantiated assertion. Now you expect us to swallow it, too. That's unacceptable. Either come up with facts or quit smacking everyone around. This isn't One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
Posted - 6/11/2013 2:05:06 PM | show profile | flag this post
I'm getting a huge laugh...
at cruzo, con and conservatives all over Washington getting so bent out of shape by these revelations.
They are what we warned you about when this mess started in 2001. This data collection plan is the SAME as under the Bush administration -- same expansive, gather everything, crunch the numbers -- program.
Welcome to our side, boys! Glad to see you finally rejecting the Bush legacy and joining mainstream Americans on the left!
Posted - 6/11/2013 3:05:28 PM | show profile | flag this post
beenthere; You're going "out there" again
Quote: "According to DHS, every single one of us is a terrorist". No, the article you cited never says that.
Quote: "One estimate I heard re law breaking is that 50% of Americans commit a felony every day" Reeeeally? I didn't yesterday, so I suggest you turn yourself in.
Quote: "You also may be a terrorist if you use the words hurricane, CDC, exercise and smart." No. It never says that.
Quote: "search and seizure without a warrant (as shown in Boston with Feds holding homeowners at gunpoint, throwing them out of their homes)" Seriously?? Sweet Jeebus. This wasn't the SA Stormtroopers, it was the Boston PD searching for a fleeing suspected terrorist murderer. What did you want them to do? Stand outside of the neighborhood and sing 'Come out come out whereever you are?' Get a friggin grip.