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MSM Finally Picks Up DHS Ammo/Tank Story
Posted - 3/11/2013 5:07:47 PM | show profile | flag this post
1.6 Billion Rounds Of Ammo For Homeland Security? It's Time For A National Conversation
By Ralph Benko
All EXCERPTS from article.
Buying 1.6 billion rounds of ammo and deploying armored personnel carriers runs contrary, in every way, to what “homeland security” really means. Discuss.
Spending money this way is beyond absurd well into perverse. According to the AP story a DHS spokesperson justifies this acquisition to “help the government get a low price for a big purchase.” Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center: “The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.”
At 15 million rounds (which, in itself, is pretty extraordinary and sounds more like fun target-shooting-at-taxpayer-expense than a sensible training exercise) … that’s a stockpile that would last DHS over a century. To claim that it’s to “get a low price” for a ridiculously wasteful amount is an argument that could only fool a career civil servant.
Also reported elsewhere, at the height of the Iraq War the Army was expending less than 6 million rounds a month. Therefore 1.6 billion rounds would be enough to sustain a hot war for 20+ years. In America.
Add to this perplexing outré purchase of ammo, DHS now is showing off its acquisition of heavily armored personnel carriers, repatriated from the Iraqi and Afghani theaters of operation.
Posted - 3/13/2013 1:49:24 PM | show profile | flag this post
If nothing else...
It is leading to a shortage in ammunition at gun stores which is keeping bullets out of the hands of all the gun nuts.
Posted - 3/13/2013 2:21:02 PM | show profile | flag this post
It is NOT a tank!
At least be factual!
MRAPs are trucks. They are NOT tanks.
And again, 1.6 billion bullets over four years is a small amount considering the number of law enforcement agents in the various agencies in DHS.
Remember, the U.S. manufacture 10 BILLION bullets per year (and then there's the billions more imported into the U.S. every year).
That's only 4% of all the bullets manufactured in the U.S.
It's amazing how an understanding of basic math can deflate a conspiracy theory.
Posted - 3/13/2013 2:34:52 PM | show profile | flag this post
So now Forbes is harboring conspiracy theorists, too?
Please write a letter to the editor to let him know his staff's reporting is 100% inaccurate.
Technically, they are mine resistant armor protected trucks. Just what local law enforcement officials need (ask residents of Keene, Maine, pop. less than 25,000, only 3 murders since 1999. But they are getting one.).
What purpose will they serve?
Here's a video of what one looks like driving down the street in a residential area:
Posted - 3/13/2013 2:52:40 PM | show profile | flag this post
Why do banks...
need them? Why do local police departments need them? Both have been using them for decades. They are what used to be called armored cars.
MRAPS were designed specifically for Iraq. They are designed to protect the passengers from IEDs. They are heavily armored on the BOTTOM. They are moderately armored on the sides to protect from rifle and sniper fire. They can be taken out with an RPG.
These are NOT tanks. They are not designed for assault. They are designed for transporting people.
We are winding down the war. We are selling machines we no longer need.
We have done this after every war.
These will replace the tracked and armored personnel carriers already in use by local police departments and federal agencies.
And about Forbes? That's an opinion piece you're citing -- not a piece of reporting. Just another right winger echoing the conspiracy theory.
Posted - 3/13/2013 2:55:42 PM | show profile | flag this post
beenthere, did you notice that what you believe to be an "article" is labeled "OP/ED"? Do you know what Op/Ed means? It means "Opinion/Editorial." "Opinion/Editorial" is not an "article;" it is a viewpoint, perspective, reaction, judgment and every other synonym you can come up with for "opinion."
The word "contributor" above the writer's name means that he is not on the staff. It means "freelancer."
If you Google the writer's name, you will see that he is described as "conservative columnist" and that he also writes for the Washington Times and the Washington Examiner.
This is news literacy: knowing the difference between news and opinion. Once you determine that it's opinion, then you vet the quality of the opinion, meaning the quality of information on which the opinion is based.
If a publication or website runs only one slant of opinion, then it is an advocacy publication or website. Forbes runs a variety of opinions and perspectives. You managed to latch onto an opinion piece by Ralph Benko, mistaking it for news and extrapolating it to all of Forbes.
Posted - 3/13/2013 3:21:41 PM | show profile | flag this post
About those bullets...
As I pointed out, the DHS purchase is about 4% of the bullets manufactured in the U.S. in a single year.
The NRA says this purchase will come to about 1,384 rounds per year per law enforcement agent under DHS training. True, that's more than the 590 rounds per year to train Social Security agents. But check around the Internet and most gun rights groups tell you you need to fire 50 rounds per week to stay proficient -- that's 2,600 rounds per year.
How does that compare to the military?
Also a small fraction.
A 2011 GAO report showed that the U.S. military was using 1.8 billion rounds per year in Afghanistan and Iraq. More than four times the amount ordered by DHS.
That was roughly 250,000 rounds for every insurgent killed.
Mind you, most of those rounds are used in training. A single U.S. military training rifle may fire 10,000 rounds per year.
DHS law enforcement officers are required -- by law -- to fire THEIR personal service weapon with the same ammo as they would use in the field. So these bullets are both field and training rounds.
A thorough debunking of this conspiracy theory, beenthere, is available at Snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ssabullets.asp
They've done the research you refuse to do.
And that doesn't include state-side training.
So, again, beenthere, simple math has debunked any conspiracy theory you cling to.
Posted - 3/13/2013 9:03:47 PM | show profile | flag this post
It's Too Late
The black helicopters are here.
First they came for cruiser, and I said nothing, because it was cruiser. Then they came for con/puzo, and I said nothing, because... well come on.
And then they came for me.
Posted - 3/13/2013 10:33:52 PM | show profile | flag this post
I'm always wary
of bulletin board/message board posters who claim the "MSM" did or did not cover something. Mostly because I don't believe there is any such thing as the "MSM" (or, even worse, the "librul MSM") at least not in 2013. It's a lazy anachronism. Who we talking about here?? Drudge or MSNBC? Brian Williams or Bill O'Reilly? Jon Stewart or the NYT?? Here's a tip--a guest commentator/blogger/op-ed piece is NOT the MSM.
Anyway...the story was covered extensively a month ago. The DHS is responsible for over 74 hundred miles of border. The Coast Guard is responsible for well over 88 thousand miles of coastline. Let's not forget the Secret Service. Millions upon millions of rounds are used for practice. And the MRAPS are military surplus. We've been through all of this.
But if anyone still wants to cling to the conspiracy theory ('War in America I tell ya!!) knock yourself out.
(PS to cruster: The "first they came for..." stuff was friggin brilliant)
Posted - 3/14/2013 9:59:37 AM | show profile | flag this post
We WILL avenge you, cruster!
Yours are the best posts on here!
Posted - 3/14/2013 10:54:41 AM | show profile | flag this post
I think the reason for the "concern"
About this arises from a misconception about the Department of Homeland Security. Like so many others when I hear "DHS" all I think about is the people in uniforms at airport security. What I keep forgetting is that the Coast Guard, INS, Secret Service, and several other federal agencies are part of DHS in addition to TSA. When you take that into account these purchases don't seem so extreme, at least to me.
Posted - 3/14/2013 1:11:35 PM | show profile | flag this post
GD, spare me the rhetoric. When you can admit that facts are facts regardless of source, then we can have an open debate.
You deny that DHS has large orders out for hollow point bullets? You deny that they are purchasing 2,700 military armored carriers? Where is the FALSE information and CONSPIRACY THEORY in this article? It must be hidden so well that only you can see it.
The OP/PIECE by the CONTRIBUTOR was asking for a NATIONAL CONVERSATION on why the DHS is making these purchases.
And you object to that ... WHY?
The fact is DHS is making large purchases that are NOT consistent with previous DHS purchasing history. It's taxpayer money and we should know what the products will be used for.
Unless you don't care how the gov't spends your money.
Let's bury our heads in the sand and not investigate anything. And "journalists" can keep printing the press release, no thinking necessary.
Enough ammo for 20+ year war. 2,700 military vehicles. Releasing illegals from detention centers. Furloughing 60,000 border agents.
But nobody has ANNNNNY questions on this board. Not a one. I do: What the heck is going on?
Posted - 3/14/2013 1:31:43 PM | show profile | flag this post
I will no longer respond to any poster yelling about conspiracy theories. There are plenty of whackjob boards where you can conspire away to discuss those.
Let's stick with the facts here.
Posted - 3/14/2013 1:47:04 PM | show profile | flag this post
said: "Enough ammo for 20+ year war. 2,700 military vehicles. Releasing illegals from detention centers. Furloughing 60,000 border agents."
OK, here's why this is NOT a story and just a conspiracy theory.
1) "Enough ammo for 20+ year war." No. Not anywhere near enough. I pointed out that the four year purchase was for fewer bullets than are used EVERY YEAR in Afghanistan. I also pointed out that the 1.8 billion bullets used IN Afghanistan DOES NOT include the billions more used for military training stateside.
2) "2,700 military vehicles..." No. FORMER military vehicles. War surplus. At least you're no longer calling them "tanks." Did you have a problem with Hummers being sold to police departments and civilians? MRAPS are the vehicles that replaced Hummers. The ones here are being retooled for civilian police use. I pointed out that most will be going to LOCAL police departments to replace their aging, Vietnam-era armored vehicles. Have you ever covered a police standoff? They almost always involve armored vehicles. FEMA is also using them for hauling people to disaster areas -- remember the Superdome in Katrina -- the vehicles that would have normally have been used for rescue were in Iraq. Yes, some are being used by the Border Patrol. If you're likely to tangle with a Mexican cartel, which has armored vehicles, you might want to protect your police as well.
3) "Releasing illegals from detention centers." So. If Congress refuses to keep these places -- usually tent cities on the border -- open, what do you expect?
4) "Furloughing 60,000 border agents." You are aware of what "furlough" means, right? It means those 60,000 police officers will be forced to take a 10-20% pay cut. It does not mean they've been fired.
Again. The reason no one is reporting on this is because THERE IS NO STORY.
Go worry about "FEMA Coffins" -- especially the ones with "Masonic markings."
Then report back so we can REALLY make you sound foolish.
Posted - 3/14/2013 5:36:04 PM | show profile | flag this post
beenthere, you obviously don't even know what "rhetoric" is, or you wouldn't misuse the word.
So let's chalk it up: You read opinion to get your "facts." You confuse opinion with news. You demand to have conversations based on your mix-ups. You skewer people who won't play. Finally, you don't want to hear that you aren't news literate because you have no desire to become news literate, so you haul out the word "rhetoric" and misapply it in a feeble effort to deflect from yourself.
You have no business showing up in a field to which you bring the wrong equipment. There's a reason you're not in media and never will be. May your tinfoil helmet always protect you from whatever falls from the sky.
Posted - 3/14/2013 6:18:12 PM | show profile | flag this post
No Longer Respond to Conspiracy Theories?
Just what they want. Now you're part of the conspiracy.
That water you're drinking, is it fluoridated?
Posted - 4/19/2013 4:07:01 PM | show profile | flag this post
Just had to bring this back up...
since we've seen so many MRAPS in the live coverage of Boston today.
If you're a cop going after a bombing suspect, you probably want one of these to ride around it.
This is where those "tanks" are going -- to local and federal law enforcement agencies for situations exactly like the Boston Marathon bombing.
Posted - 4/19/2013 4:17:44 PM | show profile | flag this post
So you're on record predicting that there will be a ton of pressure cooker bombings that require military style police presence in cities all across the USA?
That the USA as a whole is under attack (please identify these "enemies") and at any given time a military style police force is REQUIRED?
hmmmm ... interesting concept. Martial law anyone?
Or would you, as a citizen, rather have your own gun to protect your own family if you were living in Boston RIGHT NOW?
Quite frankly, I'd be more scared to open my door to this police presence than a random stranger.
And who really believes a bomber would STICK AROUND for four days? What, does he WANT to get caught?
But, there I go, thinking again. Silly head, just believe what Anderson Cooper says, no thinking involved. Close eyes, shut off brain.
Happy Friday all.
Posted - 4/19/2013 5:07:22 PM | show profile | flag this post
You also understand that they are looking for a suspect, right?
Not a convicted killer, not a fugitive.
A suspect who has not been convicted of doing ANYTHING.
Military style police presence, lockdown throughout parts of town, MTA shutdowns, bag searches on by NYPD in mass transmit (this the the biggest head scratcher of all, what EVERYONE who rides a train is a suspect now, even in other cities??) ...
all this ... for a SUSPECT.
Dorner was just a start. Now this. Shall we guess what city will be next?
Two words: WAKE UP.
Posted - 4/19/2013 5:33:36 PM | show profile | flag this post
beenthere.. have you given consideration to some sort of..
you have lost it.
Posted - 4/19/2013 7:51:22 PM | show profile | flag this post
Not entirely, Orth.
Apparently you too are buying that a metropolitan area should be on lockdown, public transportation shutdown, door-to-door searches conducted, state police, local police, FBI officers, SWAT teams, military-style vehicles, just rolling down the street, all units working in perfect sync together .... searches of citizens in OTHER CITIES taking place ...
What does that sound like to you?
A search for a suspect (which as I pointed out is LAUGHABLE) .. or a form of martial law?
But don't answer that .. the 19-year-old suspect *somehow* manages to ellude thousands of officers searching for him .. leaving the fear in place .. when WILL the next "pressure cooker" blow? It's clever, isn't?
LA ... Boston ... which city is next?
When the anvil hits, and you are in your homes, remember this thread and that there was someone who cares who was trying to warn you.
But instead of even considering the idea, you stomped your feet, covered your eyes and ears, and CHOSE to refuse to see.
Psychiatric meds are poison. They cause people to kill. Look at the black box warnings on the package inserts provided by the manufacturer and approved by the FDA.
Peace to all. Out.
Posted - 4/19/2013 8:16:20 PM | show profile | flag this post
That's an interesting logic you have that the people who were injured and killed by the bombs in Boston would be OK today if only they had carried guns.
Posted - 4/19/2013 8:17:54 PM | show profile | flag this post
Been is waaaay of base on a lot of things.
(Dont even get me started on the meds paranoia)
But the fact is the Boston police and government shut down a whole city ... for a 19 year old kid, in a jacked SUV.
After 9/11 NYers were trying to get back to work, flooded the streets to mourn. Eyes were everywhere for anything suspicious. Everyone was helping.
After London the slogan was Keep Calm and Carry On. And they did.
Boston's lockdown is bizarre.
It didn't seem to help, but it sure increased the publics fear.
Which is exactly what terrorists want. Terror.
Frankly, Boston should have held another Bruins game. Watch the singing of the national anthem last night. That's what kills terror. Not swat teams and MRAPs on the street for a lone teenage criminal (and frankly, in terms of a murder or terrorist, not a very successful one).
Posted - 4/19/2013 9:11:34 PM | show profile | flag this post
no, i think boston did it right..
they did it quickly, and did it well..they had no idea what the hell they were facing..
the idea of a chechnyan terror attack had never occurred to anyone..rather than take a chance that there were many of them, they locked it down, and it has worked, as i sit and watch them preparing to take the 19-year-old..
for all they knew, they were facing an invasion..the fact that the dead brother had been under fbi watch for 3 years apparently didn't give them ghe info they needed.. better to lock it down and go get the kid.. which they are doing right now..
Posted - 4/20/2013 7:25:40 AM | show profile | flag this post
How did it help?
"for all they knew, they were facing an invasion"
- utter bullshit. not even reasonable speculation. this is the kind of fear-driven paranoia that terrorists feed on.
how did they find the guy?
"Minutes after government officials lifted an order to residents of Watertown to stay in their homes, a man on the town's Franklin Street ventured outside for the first time in a day. That's when he spotted blood smeared on the boat parked in his driveway. He lifted the tarp and saw a man lying there covered in blood."
so throughout the daylight hours people weren't just ordered to disrupt their lives, and hide in fear (hey, great TV ratings tho!) .. law enforcement denied themselves millions of potential spotters, tips, community courage and involvement that is the real solution to terrorism.
Honestly. I dont get it.
Public safety? Its a 19yo kid, not Osama Bin Laden. The boston mafia have heavier weapons.
I'm actually surprised the gun-nuts and patriots aren't the first ones to complain about their restrictions on freedom ... their neverending concern that authority cant be trusted. (which overlaps with been's paranoia)
Or maybe police were worried some dumb honest gun carrying citizen would spot the suspect, shoot him, and end any chance of figuring out the reason and motive behind this tragedy.
Boston can take a lot of pride, showed a lot of community and courage and unity to the world in the days after the bombing.
I think the lockdown sent a bad message, to future terrorists and to citizens. Fear works.