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Posted - 6/11/2013 10:18:21 AM | show profile | flag this post
"Even if you're not doing anything wrong, you're being watched and recorded. ...it's getting to the point where you don't have to have done anything wrong, you simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody, even by a wrong call, and then they can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you've ever made, every friend you've ever discussed something with, and attack you on that basis, to sort of derive suspicion from an innocent life."
"The great fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. [People] won't be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things... And in the months ahead, the years ahead, it's only going to get worse. [The NSA will] say that... because of the crisis, the dangers that we face in the world, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power, and there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it. And it will be turnkey tyranny."
Posted - 6/11/2013 10:22:58 AM | show profile | flag this post
What I find severely odd about this, is shouldn't the NSA have known he was going to talk and leak documents?
Shouldn't they have stopped him as a suspected you-know-what (insert "T" word here)?
Posted - 6/11/2013 1:46:43 PM | show profile | flag this post
Yes, of course. The chip they planted in his brain should have told them so.
Posted - 6/11/2013 1:58:21 PM | show profile | flag this post
So true, grateful...
but perhaps the "Minority Report" machine was down for the day.
Posted - 6/11/2013 2:21:00 PM | show profile | flag this post
I think he came off
as a self-promoting jerk. (NY Post op-ed): "The impossibly self-important NSA contractor, Edward Snowden, who “exposed” two vital intelligence programs, isn’t a leftie Paul Revere. He’s Kim Kardashian with stubble.
He revealed very highly classified programs, alerting our enemies about our most sophisticated intelligence-collectioncapabilities (programs designed to keep us safe, not spy on us).He broke his oath to protect the information with which we entrusted him, lied about who we target and aided those who want to kill Americans.And he hints he could do more damage.
There’s nothing brave about his brag that he was the source of the NSA leaks (especially since he fled the country first). This is clearly about the desire to be a star.
Claiming that he only wants to make government accountable, Snowden then brags that he could expose CIA stations around the world. He wants “asylum from any countries that believe in free speech.” So he went to China?"
In his I-love-me interview, he further opines that the American people, not the government, should decide about programs such as those he revealed. He should have stayed in school until he got to the Civics block on democracy. The American public does vote on these programs — through their representatives in Congress. That’s why we have regular elections.
And to my leftist friends: Do you really want a 29-year-old high-school dropout, rather than Congress, deciding which intelligence programs should be authorized? Really?"----
I almost never agree with Post editorials--but I agree with all the above. Now we hear "Russia Says It Would Consider Asylum For Edward Snowden". Seriously?? That's a haven for 'free speech'?? This isn't civil disobedience--this is a publicity whore trying to get on "Maury".
Posted - 6/11/2013 2:30:59 PM | show profile | flag this post
mp -- are you sitting down? -- I actually agree with a lot of what you said.
I find the whole thing rather bizarre. Someone with no HS diploma reaching high enough status to leak top-level classified documents just doesn't make sense. He was a security guard. Anyone else want to jump at that career trajectory?
The whole "public should decide" remark was rather inauthentic to me.
Gd and ES, drop the snark for one second and THINK, please.
The whole issue is that he is "whistleblowing" on is about how every stroke of the keyboard is monitored, every cell phone tracked, internet use watched, yet, he was able snag these docs, leak them, get out of the country, no questions, no alerts, no TSA scuffle at the airport, etc.
Does that make any sense to either of you?
Posted - 6/11/2013 2:44:20 PM | show profile | flag this post
In other words:
Edward Snoowden: Poster Boy for Why the NSA Surveillance Program DOES NOT WORK
If this is the result of a "successful" program, it should be dumped immediately.
Posted - 6/11/2013 9:27:20 PM | show profile | flag this post
beenthere; While I appreciate
You agree with some of my points--And I agree with some of yours--I have to say thouigh, IMO, you're still dead wrong on a few things.
First, I don't see how you can say "the NSA Surveillance Program DOES NOT WORK"...it's been revealed it does work...the "program to collect vast amounts of phone records has foiled multiple attempted terrorist attacks inside the United States, the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee told reporters on Thursday." And no one--Repub or Dem has contradicted that.
Second..and most important...please refrain from calling Snowden a "whistleblower". Any reporter who uses that term in this case should be flogged.
A whistleblower exposes corruption, illegal activities, wrongdoing, malfeasance, outright lying, etc etc. The people that exposed Enron, Tyco, WorldCom come to mind. An employee who finds out about illegal toxic chemical dumping, pyramid schemes, etc.
Snowden was a Leaker. Period. He signed oaths and broke them. He revealed something that was SECRET--NOT illegal. Big difference here.
"Why is media using sympathetic word 'whistleblower' [for] Edward #Snowden, who leaked secret #NSA program? He broke the law & made us less safe," tweeted Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations. "A 'whistleblower' is person who reveals wrongdoing, corruption, illegal activity. None of this applies here even if you oppose US [government] policy."
Federal law broadly protects whistle-blowers with one exception, employees who are privy to the nation's secrets, said Professor Richard E. Moberly, associate dean of the University of Nebraska College of Law.
"The definition of a whistle-blower depends on the context," he said. "Outside of national security we tend to think very broadly. [Whistle-blowers expose] not only illegal activity, but abuses of power, fraud, financial misconduct, and even unethical choices." (ABC).
If he had the courage of his convictions he'd stay here and face the music--instead of running to China--where they 'value free speech' (HUH?!?!?)
Posted - 6/12/2013 10:31:54 AM | show profile | flag this post
First, I don't see how you can say "the NSA Surveillance Program DOES NOT WORK"...it's been revealed it does work
Then why wasn't Snowden CAUGHT?
He is one of their own. Surely they have surveillance on their own employees computers, internet, cell phones, video cameras within their facilities, etc. They are the National Security Agency.
How could they NOT know what he is doing? Either they knew and they allowed him to go public (which opens the proverbial can of worms) OR they didn't know, which shows how useless their techniques are.
Here is another question: What if you were told you had to mail in, every month, copies of:
your cell phone usage
internet browsing history
every email sent
every email received
every comment posted on an internet website
credit card bills
debit card purchases/banking history
Would you feel comfortable packing that all up and mailing it directly to the NSA every month?
Posted - 6/12/2013 11:51:02 AM | show profile | flag this post
if you'd read my snark correctly you would have realized what I was getting at -- the NSA programs do work -- they just don't work the way you think they are supposed to.
You claim "every stroke of the keyboard is monitored, every cell phone tracked, internet use watched" -- but do you have any idea how impossible it would be for anyone to actually gain any insight from all that data into something that would allow NSA agents to actually know what any individual is doing?
Do you have any idea how much data we as a species generate?
Just look at photographs. Every two minutes, people upload more photos to Facebook than were taken in the entire 19th century. There were more than 70 billion photos uploaded to Facebook in 2011 alone. And that's only 20% of all the photos taken that year.
And data generation is growing exponentially.
Every two years, humans will produce more data than in all previous years of human history combined.
It's impossible for humans to make any sense out of what a person is doing, thinking or communicating when you're looking at massive volumes of data.
And how much data are we talking about when we're talking about the NSA?
You can store a terabyte of data in a space roughly the size of a pencil. A NSA center under construction in Utah has one million square feet of storage space. If you printed out all the data that place can hold, it would come to 1.25 TRILLON DVDs, or 500,000,000,000,000,000,000 pages of printed text.
No human can process that, no human organization can make sense of all that.
In fact, the only people who will be working there are pretty much zookeepers for the machines -- techs who will keep the cooling systems going so the things don't melt down.
Machines CAN find patterns -- lots of phone calls from point A to a known terrorist phone in Pakistan, for instance. They can crack codes being used in those conversations. That's a mechanical process not far removed from the boffins in England monitoring radio broadcasts and using their own Egnima machines and computers to crack Nazi codes.
But, there is so much data out there -- that unless you are doing something the NSA is actually looking for, the program won't even notice you. That's the best form of protection. And it is why there is no existing technology at this scale that can tell what a person is actually doing, thinking or planning.
That requires old fashioned spycraft, shoe leather and human intel.
Posted - 6/12/2013 12:28:20 PM | show profile | flag this post
beenthere, your conspiracy theories bore me, your attraction to shabby information bores me, your media-bashing bores me, and your belief that you're the smartest person in the room bores me even more. I've got nothing for you but a smile. ;o)
Posted - 6/12/2013 3:27:53 PM | show profile | flag this post
And just a clarification...
the Utah center I mentioned is not for permanent storage of any data. It's just for scouring data as it's generated.
That should give you an idea of what a tiny needle in what an unimaginably huge haystack each of us really is in this world.
Posted - 6/12/2013 5:29:12 PM | show profile | flag this post
Your post proves my point. Thank you.
--That requires old fashioned spycraft, shoe leather and human intel.--
So why are they bothering to collect and store every citizen's info?
Posted - 6/12/2013 5:39:17 PM | show profile | flag this post
You do know about HR 2977 Space Preservation Act? Look into it. Read c-a-r-e-f-u-l-ly. I'm feeling generous so I'll give you a SHORT glimpse of what Congress has approved and our military is doing. Oh, and note the use of the word "chemtrail."
Excerpt from HR277:
B) Such terms include exotic weapons systems such as–
(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;
(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;
(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;
(v) laser weapons systems;
(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and
(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.
(C) The term `exotic weapons systems’ includes weapons designed to damage space or natural ecosystems (such as the ionosphere and upper atmosphere) or climate, weather, and tectonic systems with the purpose of inducing damage or destruction upon a target population or region on earth or in space.
So, chemtrails, weather control and modification, using earthquakes as a weapon, well, this is just conspiracy nonsense!!! Um, no. It's in HR2977.
It also talks about mind and mood control of populations. But you knew that, right?
Sure you did. Because our gov't NEVER does anything bad to the people. They're protecting us.
Posted - 6/12/2013 9:38:40 PM | show profile | flag this post
'cause you're really really b-a-d at this...
HR2977 was an embarassment not only to Kucinich, but to congress in general. "In a nutshell, Kucinich did not write the bill (or read it, until too late), the focus of the bill is nothing to do with chemtrails, it was written by UFO enthusiasts Alfred Webre and Carol Rosin, who were trying to:
1.Nullify a vast conspiracy by the “military-industrial complex”
2.Allow the use of suppressed alien technology for free energy
3.Avoid accidentally shooting down (or scaring away) visiting aliens.
They listed a bunch of weird weapons, including mind control, tectonic weapons and (very briefly) chemtrails. The bill was re-written several time in less unusual language to give it chance of passing, but ultimately fizzled in committee
WHERE did you hear "what Congress has approved and our military is doing"?? The whole thing is beyond conspiracy--it's bizarre. "Oh, and note the use of the word "chemtrail." Another debunked tinfoil hat Men In Black story.
So, you think the government is doing this (not)...and you think the bill was passed (not). Please, look into this stuff before you post it.
Posted - 6/13/2013 1:28:59 PM | show profile | flag this post
"So why are they bothering to collect and store every citizen's info?"
There's no way to collect and store all that info in any one place. All NSA is doing is watching the flow -- like currents in a stream -- to see where they're leading.
That's the privacy issue here. Not that NSA is storing info (your bank and online accounts are doing that), but that the system can be used to see trends you may be a part of.
The further issue is, how are we sure it will only be used against our enemies?
We have safeguards in place to keep our armed forces from attacking us -- but the secrecy of this operation leaves a lot of people worried. You can tell when a Reaper fires a missile at someone -- it leaves a hole in the ground . You can't easily notice it if someone is seeing what kind of pizza you're ordering tonight.