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Topic: Do Killed Stories Count?
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| Author | Message |
| sbh9924 | Posted – 1/19/2005 12:39:59 AM | show profile I've written for magazines that commissioned the story, accepted it, then killed it and paid me a kill fee. Is it considered ethical to list those mags in my bio? I never have but I did write for them--the writing just never got published. |
| limericks4all | Posted – 1/19/2005 2:12:42 AM | show profile I'd say no. When you say, ''I've written for X, Y, Z magazine'' it suggests you published with them. I mean, heck, you could send an unsolicited essay to the New Yorker, have them reject it, and say, ''I've written for the New Yorker.'' Because you did write it for the New Yorker -- they just didn't want it. <<I've written for magazines that commissioned the story, accepted it, then killed it and paid me a kill fee. Is it considered ethical to list those mags in my bio? I never have but I did write for them--the writing just never got published.<< |
| VillageGal | Posted – 1/19/2005 8:10:03 AM | show profile No, That would be unacceptable. Listing publications means you got published in them. |
| Lotus665 | Posted – 1/19/2005 11:05:33 AM | show profile Well, in a twist on this question, what if your story was accepted and paid for in full but never ran? Could you list it as a place you ''wrote for'' or not? (Possibilities: maybe it ran later and you didn't know, or maybe it will some day, or maybe it never did because there was no room or something.) ------ Lotus665 |
| Marie | Posted – 1/19/2005 11:39:29 AM | show profile I guess you could say you wrote for this publication...you did. Just say it hasn't appeared yet, which is the truth. Your situation is quite different from someone who sent something in on spec without an assignment and wasn't paid. This stuff isn't really so rigid...if it will help list it. I would. But maybe you should try to place the piece in anothe pub--update it if you need to. Even if you were paid, you can sell it to another pub and get paid again (just be sure Pub A has definitively killed it). |
| whosays | Posted – 1/19/2005 11:57:14 AM | show profile If the story was killed, that means it's done gone and never going to run. Don't stretch your ethics to the breaking point by saying you ''wrote for'' a magazine that killed your story. In this big world of magazines, not listing this one surely won't leave a giant void in your credentials. Most of us list a few, then add the phrase ''among others.'' |
| jmm | Posted – 1/19/2005 12:09:56 PM | show profile I think it is risky to mention them. It makes one wonder why it was killed. A story can be killed for many reasons, including being badly written. I don't think you want to raise that question in anyone's mind. I wouldn't list it. |
| sbh9924 | Posted – 1/19/2005 12:22:03 PM | show profile That's pretty much how I've always thought about it, but it helps to hear it. Thanks. |
| Marie | Posted – 1/19/2005 12:27:20 PM | show profile My apologies for bad advice--I just re-read your message--somehow I had the impression it wasn't formally killed but that it was a story you'd been assigned, paid in full for, and that it just hadn't run. But I would rework it for another pub. No, don't mention it. |
| nonono | Posted – 1/19/2005 1:11:59 PM | show profile i dunno, i think it depends. for example, I finished a story for Glamour for an editor under the late GREAt ruth whitney, only to see her fired a week after the piece was accepted and killed a month after Bonnie Fuller was hired. because that move was so widely known/villified by the publishing industry in general, i can say ''I wrote for Glamour under Ruth Whitney, but the story was killed by Bonnie Fuller,'' and people respect that, it seems. Much moreso than if things had been the other way around. Pieces get killed all the time for no real good reason. If you have a reason why the story was killed--like an editor left, or the story changed too dramatically, or the subject died, it still says something--if the publication is a tough one to get into--that you got so far with a story. And will the editor provide a decent reference? Is he/she willing to see other pitches, etc.? While I agree admitting to killed pieces is risky, it's almost, I think, ballsier to talk about them openly--I admire writers who can casually say, 'I did a piece for such-and-such (great editor or great magazine name here) but it was killed because (decent or weird reason here).'' They seem to have so much confidence. And I trust those people, because I pretty much assume anyone with substantial experience in this industry has had at least one story killed or just not work out. |
| arewrites | Posted – 1/19/2005 11:03:11 PM | show profile I can't believe anyone would even *ask this question, never mind reply with a ''yes.'' Sure, let's all do this. Let's all count The New Yorker as a pub we've sold to repeatedly. Oh, gee, all those stories got killed, but hey, we sell to the New Yorker once a week. Harpers, too, btw. They love our stuff. Right. Not only do you set up the possibility for anyone anywhere to claim anything as a credit, but you imply that you were able to do something you weren't able to do. Whatever the reason, the piece was killed. If you attended Yale for a year and got thrown out, can you legitimately claim to be a Yale grad? If you dated someone for a year and he dumped you, can you legitimately claim to be his spouse? What do you think? |
| WritingEd | Posted – 1/20/2005 2:34:09 PM | show profile All of this reminds me of one of the most frustrating things about starting out and building clips--something I didn't realize until I was a few years into freelancing (PT...have always also had a FT job). You think it's just a matter of getting your idea liked that will get you a clip. But there are so many steps beyond hearing initial interest from an editor who picks you out of the slush pile: - I like it; will run by my editor - I like it; can you do some more research first? (sorry don't think it's going to pan out; or, sorrybut i think this feature idea is best as a 100-word FOB) - I like it; I'll pitch it at our next edit meeting - I like it; here's an assignment; no month slated (never makes it to schedule and never runs) - I like it; here's an assignment; slated for this month; looks great--we're all set (never runs because something out of writer's control happens -- editor leaves, subject of story is no longer relevant, or maybe no longer ALIVE) etc. So frustrating! The reason I realized this late in the game is that I did get a clip pretty easily and very early on from a major magazine. It was getting that next big mag clip that took forever, because of the scenarios above. My ideas have stood out to an editor so many times, and I sure with I could add that fact to my bio somehow! (''nearly published in The New Yorker''; ''got picked out of the slush pile at People''; ''idea brought to EIC's attention at Cosmo'') If only... I know the idea is to use these experiences to build rapport with editors and perhaps get lucky next time, but so often it just doesn't pan out. |
| nonono | Posted – 1/20/2005 2:52:45 PM | show profile arewrites, at the risk of being sooooo painfully obvious, let me once again explain that obviously it is risky and probably ill-advised to list a host of killed clips and story ideas that never came to full fruition on a resume or in a cover letter. But occassionally the mention of a killed piece can interest an editor: either in commissioning the story him or her self, or wanting to know what the experience with editors at that pubication was like, or even just some mild level of impression that, yeah! you got an editor from the new Yorker to call you back, assign a story, and kill it later because of XY or Z, (given XY or Z is interesting for some reason or another). editors are not robots. They are people who are just as interested in other people as people as your friends and colleagues are. They like to engage you in coversation. Beware in general of know-it-alls who post here in black and white absolutes. Yes, there are some general rules, but there's a lot of grey and a lot of room for being human in this industry, especially in this industry. |
| VillageGal | Posted – 1/20/2005 4:07:01 PM | show profile Damn, I better go out and change my resume and and find a way to add that I once got a hand-written rejection note from The New Yorker saying, ''Try Us Again'' Geez, I had no idea.. Seriously, I agree with Arewrites on this one |
| nonono | Posted – 1/20/2005 4:13:54 PM | show profile when I told my editor at the NY Times that I got an email like that from an editor at harper's like that--a nice email that added, feel free to send me other ideas, he was interested and agreed that was nice of the guy because that same guy had written a story for the magazine that was nominated for a national magazine award that year. It made the editor look good, it made me look good, it made us all feel good, and it in no way sullied his opinion of me or my talent. I can't read minds, but I could tell he was thinking, ''what a cool thing for John Jeremiah Sullivan to do'' instead of, ''what a loser this writer is, to be bragging about a rejection she got.'' It's not always about me me me--or you you you. Sometimes you do yourself a big favor by forgetting about what you ''appear'' to be infront of other people and just being yourself instead. |
| roja93 | Posted – 1/20/2005 5:40:34 PM | show profile I agree completely with the above. And as everyone wanting to brag about a hand-written rejection from the New Yorker. while you might think this is amusing to put in a post as an example, it's not the same situation as the original poster's at all; the original poster actually had an assignment from a particular publication. So no, don't make a point of listing all your killed pieces, but it can make for good conversation. My God, lighten up a little. |
| roja93 | Posted – 1/20/2005 5:41:36 PM | show profile ''It'' should be ''they.'' |
| nonono | Posted – 1/20/2005 5:54:44 PM | show profile which was my point exactly, thank you...I interview these ''I Read Five Minute managers'' and ''Seven Habits Of Highly Successful People''/ ''My worst flaw is perfectionism'' for jobs and internships all the time. They're phony, they're not real, they lack humor, they take themselves too seriously and I don't want them around. But the person who's bracingly honest and refreshingly candid? that's what i want in a writer. And I think a NYorker handwritten rejection is pretty fucking cool--and I write for many publications of similar ilk. |
| arewrites | Posted – 1/21/2005 12:16:25 AM | show profile >>it's not the same situation as the original poster's at all; the original poster actually had an assignment from a particular publication. << Yeah. And it got killed. Hence listing said publication among one's credits is dishonest and misleading. It says that you were capable of writing for them, that they liked your work, that it was published. And while it *may be true that the work was fine and was killed for other reasons, it also may *not be true - and I'm not just talking about this one instance. The fact that you can pitch a good idea and then be incapable of producing a decent article should not be presented to an editor as a success story. (And it's perhaps worth noting that an editor *might just question a journalist's reliability as reporter if he or she happened to report having accomplished something that he or she didn't really actually accomplish, you know?) |
| arewrites | Posted – 1/21/2005 12:20:19 AM | show profile >>Posted – 1/20/2005 2:52:45 PM | show profile arewrites, at the risk of being sooooo painfully obvious, let me once again explain that obviously it is risky and probably ill-advised to list a host of killed clips and story ideas that never came to full fruition on a resume or in a cover letter. But occassionally the mention of a killed piece can interest an editor:<< Then you say so. You say ''I wrote for so-and-so but hte piece was killed.'' You don't say ''I include so-and-so among my published credits,'' or ''it's pending publication'' when it's not. Similarly, you say ''I attended Harvard for a year,'' not ''I'm a Harvard graduate.'' Why isn't this obvious? If you take a pre-med class, do you go around telling everyone you're a doctor? Are people *that dishonest around here? |
| Marie | Posted – 1/21/2005 12:47:43 AM | show profile No one is arguing anything comparable to that. Please. Give it a rest and relax. Everyone has said not to put it on a resume (I corrected myself after I reread initial post and saw piece was killed). Please. |
| nonono | Posted – 1/21/2005 4:15:20 PM | show profile arewrites, i think I made the distinction pretty clear of what the poster could concievably do. My response was in response to the posts that said you should never mention killed pieces because doing so makes you look stupid. You extrapolated something else from my post, obviously--go back and reread. I also do think --for reasons I explained--an argument could be made for saying you wrote for a particular publication if in fact you did. It would behoove you to explain that the piece never ran and why, of course. But it's kind of like the whole ''It depends on the definition of the word 'is' is.'' If this person says, 'Published in tk magazine'' he'd be lying. ''Written for tk magazine?'' Misrepresentation, perhaps, but he's not lying. I'm not saying that's right. I'm just saying that just because a writer had a story killed by a magazine doesn't mean the story has to die. If there's a reason behind it, a good explanation and ABOVe ALL a good story, the writer should share it. Most editors (the ones I know, anyway) would enjoy hearing it. |
| nonono | Posted – 1/21/2005 4:20:36 PM | show profile Incidently, many award-winning stories are stories that have been killed and resubmitted to other publications. I myself know of six, including two that were rejected by magazines like GQ and Esquire and ran in Harpers, and let's not forget Adrian Nicole LeBlanc's masterful book that was killed by Rolling Stone and, I believe, rejected by The New York Times in its first story form. Thank god these writers didn't hang their heads in shame and never mention these stories again.... |
| arewrites | Posted – 1/21/2005 11:35:11 PM | show profile Hang on a sec. I'm not suggesting that any of the people who responded to the initial query are supporting the idea of listing a pub that killed a story among credits. My comments are to the original poster, who clearly thought it would be okay. And yes, there are plenty of examples of stories killed by one publication that then went on to become award-winners. I'm not sure that's really relevant, though. I mean, there are high school drop-outs who went on to become enormously successful businessmen, but that still wouldn't excuse them making claims for successes they'd never had or achievements they'd never reached. |
| arewrites | Posted – 1/21/2005 11:41:22 PM | show profile >>I also do think --for reasons I explained--an argument could be made for saying you wrote for a particular publication if in fact you did. It would behoove you to explain that the piece never ran and why, of course. But it's kind of like the whole ''It depends on the definition of the word 'is' is.'' If this person says, 'Published in tk magazine'' he'd be lying. ''Written for tk magazine?'' Misrepresentation, perhaps, but he's not lying. << Can we stick to the actual issue here? The question was: can I list these publications on my bio. Not ''can I mention having written for these publicatons in my next interview?'' or ''can I discuss my writing history in my next pitch?'' When you write your bio, you don't list magazines you've ''written for.'' Hell, I can sit down right now and write seven articles for the New Yorker. They're for the New Yorker because I say so, because that's who I've decided I'm going to send them to. So there, I've written for the New Yorker. I'm putting ''The New Yorker'' on my bio. Ultimately, it comes down to the same thing. When you list your credits, no, you cannot list places you never published. I can't believe we're even debating the issue. |
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