FriendFeed
| Back to Home > Bulletin Board > Media Issues > Topic: Not the right experience... |
Topic: Not the right experience...
  Page 1 of 6   |
|
| Author | Message |
| scottandrewh | Posted – 1/19/2005 4:47:10 PM | show profile | email poster I got my degree in communication and English in 1999, worked a handful of temp jobs, including one involving proofreading for a few days. I've had a few articles published, unpaid. I've written a novel, 3 plays, 2 completed screenplays, and 2 lengthy but not yet completed screenplays. I produced a segment for a PBS station. My training never included programs like Quark Xpress that everyone seems to demand. They weren't even available at my university; downloading the sample program crashed my computer. Even if it had worked, I'm not sure how I'd learn to use it without a specific project need. |
| scottandrewh | Posted – 1/19/2005 4:47:22 PM | show profile Part 2 I'm in graduate school (cinema studies); I'm 29 and still haven't held a full-time job and needed student loans to get out of my parents' house. I've collapsed everything I've done on my resume as much as honestly possible, but it still looks like I've jumped around, so I never get called. I've been to dozens of experts; all blame the economy for the lack of phone calls. I keep looking for entry-level positions and not finding them, because they all demand different experience from what I have, which makes me wonder how they can be considered entry-level in the first place. |
| tj2240 | Posted – 1/19/2005 5:06:20 PM | show profile Hmmmm.... Whew! That's quite a laundry list you have there. The only thing i see missing is that you haven't specified what it is, exactly, that you want. What kinds of jobs are you applying for? What do you want to do for a living? |
| floruja | Posted – 1/19/2005 5:35:27 PM | show profile Something's not adding up here. There's no economy to blame for your having temped around in 1999 and 2000, if not the first half of 2001. I was in a hiring position then, and the competition for candidates--for anyone with vital signs, never mind GOOD candidates--was incredible. If I were reviewing candidate resumes and read your background as you've described it, I'd wonder if you wanted a full-time job in an office. You've completed a novel, 2 screenplays and 3 plays, so obviously you know how to start and finish projects. I'd wonder, therefore, if you were one of those ''creative types'' who isn't interested in the mundane business of starting and finishing projects that generate revenue. I'd further note that although you know you need Quark for many of the jobs for which you've thought to provide, you haven't taken a Quark class--and instead have enrolled in a grad program in cinema studies, which doesn't crop up too often in job descriptions. So again, I'd wonder if you really WANT to work, or if you just recognize the need to have someone cutting paychecks for you while you devote yourself to a series of non-income-generating writing projects. I'm not unsympathetic, but this is something many people here have to deal with. This board is full of people who work full time (whether on staff or as freelancers), pay a mortgage, support a family, and find time on their OWN time to work on their creative pursuits. That you never did so in the full span of your 20s is going to raise a ton of red flags for most would-be employers. |
| brianvan0711 | Posted – 1/19/2005 5:37:15 PM | show profile | email poster Read Time Magazine this week. You're not the only one in their late 20's looking at long odds for a comfortable career. There's nothing we can say, rationally, that hasn't been said already to encourage you in your situation. I see nothing in these messages that makes you look like you're incompetent; just to save a lot of other people the typing time, you can't prove at all that you can work in the jobs that you want and there's too many experienced candidates out there. You can try working an internship first, but it's terribly expensive to do so, and know that it's not a solution that will guarantee results that pay your bills. (Just like college) All you can do is keep sending out your resumes to these types of positions, hoping that someone will give you your big break. You might need to invest a lot more money on education, on living expenses, on career services, to get to that point. Seek some specific advice on those matters by reading some of the other threads around here. You'll get a break eventually if you're persistent. Unfortunately, from where you stand, it's a long uphill battle. Keep in mind that there's a lot of people here who will encourage you to keep trying but probably wouldn't hire you as you are right now. At least they mean well in trying to encourage you. Try to get something more than encouragement here; get some practical suggestions. |
| floruja | Posted – 1/19/2005 5:37:37 PM | show profile sorry, that should have read ''many of the jobs for which you thought to apply''...my multitasking skills must be frozen today... |
| Jen480 | Posted – 1/19/2005 6:35:15 PM | show profile I agree w/ Brian, definitely read the Jan. 24 issue of Time magazine. There's a great article inside about ''twixters'' or people in their 20s who haven't quite settled down into adulthood yet & are still in college, looking for their first job, living at home, etc. I myself am one of these so-called twixters & am one of thousands (millions even?) who are vying for entry-level positions in the media world. It's definitely rough out there, but it's important to be positive! As for your dilemma, I'm a bit confused about what kind of entry-level jobs you're applying for. I'm assuming you want to write, since you did mention writing screen plays, novels, etc. I don't think you necesarily need to know Quark if you just want to freelance since it's a layout & design program. However, it doesn't hurt to learn it! Try enrolling for an intro course at your local community college. Quark is actually a pretty easy program to learn. I never took a course in it, I just learned it when I was an editor at my college's paper & one of the designers took me under her wing & taught it to me. You might also want to consider getting an internship or two under your belt. That might be what's holding you back. Internships are great b/c you make contacts & you can figure out if magazines (or what ever you want to do) is right for you. Just some food for thought... |
| eriksherman | Posted – 1/19/2005 6:36:45 PM | show profile I'll take a slightly differnt tack. I *am* unsympathetic. You're almost 30 and allowing other people to support you or planning on borrowing money when you apparently have no prospects of ever making any. Get up off your ass and go get a job of any kind. Wait on tables, dig ditches, move furniture, shovel horse manure in a tangible form. The best way to find a job is if you have one. Try adequately supporting yourself and then do the work you'd like to do on the side. If you get a full-time job in it, that would be great. But it's time to grow up. I'm sure plenty of people will say I'm being too harsh, but the world is a hard place. You do yourself no good by hiding from life. I'm also not telling you to do anything I literally haven't done myself, except shovel the physical excrement. But if I had found it necessary to do that to meet my obligations, you can bet it would have been on my resume. You might also find that real non-media work opens new possibilities in your writing as well. ------ Author of "Geocaching: Hike and Seek with Your GPS" - hidden at a bookstore near you... |
| brianvan0711 | Posted – 1/20/2005 12:04:41 AM | show profile | email poster erik: I can appreciate your ''tough love'' approach to some extent, but it adds up to an additional slap in the face: 1. Work in other industries, and you endanger your career prospects in your target industry. ''Pegging'' is almost universal nowadays, as job openings require extremely specific skills/experience and managers find little reason to take a risk with someone wishing to follow a different discipline. I don't know why this makes any sense, but apparently it's a widespread form of thinking. Remember those stories of the CEO who started working in the mailroom? Nowadays, the guy from the mailroom never gets a serious look from anyone not hiring in the mailroom. (I had to resign from my first job in such a situation) So, the longer you allow yourself to be distracted in another industry, the tougher it'll be to deflect the questions and concerns in future job interviews. (hey, that's if they even would call someone in who isn't currently working somewhere else in the same position they're hiring for.) 2. Wait staff? Construction jobs? What economy do YOU live in? Those jobs are nearly impossible to get if you're not an insider or a well-experienced worker. Strict job requirements and tight employment markets both trickled down to the service and heavy labor industries - you're not the only out-of-work web designer or sports writer who wants to work at a restaurant or diner for the tips. 3. If you're facing a tough job search and you have money saved, you can put a better effort into your job searching if you're not distracted by a full-time job otherwise. Sometimes that extra effort leads to a big difference in results. (sometimes not) In conclusion, your sentiment means well, but like I said earlier, the thing that the OP needs the most is a practical plan of attack for his job search. Without that, this is all a bunch of equally unhelpful reassurances and ad-hominems. (and yes, so far I've been useless, too) |
| eriksherman | Posted – 1/20/2005 6:46:17 AM | show profile brian: >> 1. Work in other industries, and you endanger your career prospects in your target industry. << What career prospects? He's basically never worked. He HAS no career prospects at the moment. I'm not being mean, just realistic. Havng no work experience at 29 telegraphs things far worse than not having the ''right'' experience. And, by the way, in 96, I moved into full-time freelance writing over a period of six months having never been on staff and only having a half dozen food-related essays that I published in a weekly paper as a start. >> 2. Wait staff? Construction jobs? What economy do YOU live in? Those jobs are nearly impossible to get if you're not an insider or a well-experienced worker. << I live in the self-made economy. You can always find someone at some level desperate enough to take a chance on a person with no skills. You start there and work up as quickly as you can. Heck, the trades are getting so desperate that some are sponsoring free training in areas like plumbing and electrical for people who will look at them at a career. (I'm not suggesting the latter, though it might actually help him.) Then you work on the side. Hard? Yup. But you have to make the rent without depending on mom and dad. Are there others looking for jobs? Yup - so you have to want it more and work harder. >> 3. If you're facing a tough job search and you have money saved, you can put a better effort into your job searching if you're not distracted by a full-time job otherwise. Sometimes that extra effort leads to a big difference in results. (sometimes not) << Eh, not sure I agree. In general - and I'm speaking from lots of life experience at this point - people want you when you're already had. Anyway, he doesn't have money saved to live on and seems to have been doing everything possible to NOT work. That's why he needs to take a job at something and get into the real world. >> In conclusion, your sentiment means well, but like I said earlier, the thing that the OP needs the most is a practical plan of attack for his job search. << You are being misdirected. This person in particular would seem to need to completely engage in life and realize, through practical efforts, that he has to be responsible for his own needs. Working on a ''plan of attack for his job search'' is just going to translate into more inaction, because his actions to date have proven that he doesn't want to work. Remember, we're not talking about a 22 year old. This is a guy who is about to turn 30. Camp is over. ------ Author of "Geocaching: Hike and Seek with Your GPS" - hidden at a bookstore near you... |
| floruja | Posted – 1/20/2005 9:17:26 AM | show profile I'll add this to Erik's on-target comments: Those of you who think your problem is unique to your generation are kidding yourselves. This is not the only economic depression you'll ever live through, and whining about the unfairness of it all is not a survival technique. From age 25-30 I had a 3-day-a-week ad agency job and freelanced for the rest of my income. The economy tanked in 1989 and I had to take a legal secretary job until 1994, when a chance meeting with an old client on the subway to a full-time job with my old agency. I held that until 1998, entered a new area of communications that saw my salary double in three years, and then got laid off when this depression began and was thrown back into freelancing. At 45, I expect to live through at least one more depression in the course of the rest of my career. And if you think being 25 or 30 and lacking experience is no picnic on a job search, just wait till you find out how much fun it is to be 45 or 50 and have too much experience. I'm freelancing partly because I love it and it's been quite profitable, but also partly because a lot of staff positions are far more open to a less expensive 30-something than they are to me. The sad thing for your generation is that you saw the mid-late 1990s economic boom and didn't recognize it as the short-term party it was. We may not see another time like it in our lifetimes, particularly given the burden of debt and trade deficits with which we're being saddled. Call it unfair, call it the reality of the economic cycle--either way, we all need to find a way to support ourselves financially. And devoting your 20s to working on creative projects and dodging opportunities to gain employable skills is not the way to go about doing that. |
| foodlit | Posted – 1/20/2005 9:37:52 AM | show profile I agree With much of the advice given, especially the tough love approach. No one is going to hand you a job, especially if you've never really worked full time. Thing is, you're competing for the same jobs with candidates who HAVE, who worked while they went to school. So, you need to be more proactive. If you are determined enough, you can find a job somewhere as a waitress/bartender, or in sales. You'd be surprised how valuable experience in entry level sales can be,depending on what you want to do. I started that way because I couldn't get a good entry-level advertising job, but someone suggested sales. I ended up at my favorite radio station in sales, and it was really one of my all time favorite jobs. I also had the chance to write my own commercials/ad copy. So, life is honestly what you make of it. Another approach to seriously consider is temping. Especially if you have some solid computer skills. See if they can put you in some creative spots. I've had many people over the years end up with permanent jobs from temping. How? They go in there with a smile on their face, do all the grunt work thrown at them...and here's the key, THEY ASK FOR MORE WORK! AND HAVE A GREAT ATTITUDE! You'd be amazed how far your enthusiasm, hard work and positive attitude will take you. Good luck |
| brianvan0711 | Posted – 1/20/2005 9:49:20 AM | show profile | email poster All I can tell you is what I've observed: a large slice of college grads in my age group - mid to late 20's - are finding it difficult to start their careers and establish good financial habits. Everyone's parents are baffled as to why their kids can't just go out and get a job. (My response to this question: ''Sure. I can get a job. Can you give me the rent money that I'll need for the first 3-4 months while I work an unpaid internship that would likely be a prerequisite to such a job? And do you have any friends that will hire me?'') I think working odd jobs is a practical idea at a glance, but you really aren't thinking much of the overwhelming competition from the vast underemployed job market, illegal immigrants, and the usual part-timers (college and high school students, retired workers looking for supplemental income, spouses of full-time workers, artists, actors, etc.). I'd work for a moving company if it meant I'd work 10 days of the month and have the other 20 to myself. Where do I sign up? Yes, it is, and always has been, difficult to get into that kind of work. Here in NYC, even the BUSBOY ads ask for 2 years of New York restaurant experience. How does he get around that without lying his ass off? Besides, yes anyone can pick up an instant job at Starbucks or at a retail store, but who's covering their expenses at $9/hour? Office jobs are becoming essential for providing the minimum income needed for survival. Only now - right now, at this moment - are the corporate jobs starting to pick up again. Yeah, he can get a job. Lots of jobs. And he's going to have to reject the vast majority of them for providing insufficient income. For a great many others that you're saying he should take a look at, I can tell you - from experience - that it is more difficult than you're making it out to be. Not that he shouldn't try - but don't make him feel bad for him having a rough time with it. Obviously, with all the jobs he's had, he's been down that path. But that's irrelevant. This isn't the ''Waiters and Bartender's Website''. This is mediabistro.com. He wants a media job. Suggesting that he jump into another career path and ''suck it up'' is a little off the mark. |
| bubbles | Posted – 1/20/2005 10:02:01 AM | show profile As a late-20something, I couldn't resist replying to this. You take the unpaid internship while you're still in school, or you take the part-time job in retail or at Starbucks while working the unpaid internship and live in a tiny apartment with roommates for a while. No one works more than one job anymore? |
| floruja | Posted – 1/20/2005 10:22:28 AM | show profile Brian, here's a newsflash for you: your ''it's all someone else's fault'' attitude and your incessant negativity (here an on every other thread where you've popped up recently, including every comment you've made about tsunami relief efforts) are probably torpedoing your job search efforts more than the economy is. Your comments say it all: you want to work 10 hours and have the rest of the time to yourself. You want your parents to hand you over to a friend who will give you a job (or let you ''waltz into'' it, as you suggested in another thread one successful applicant had done--amazingly, the thought that the applicant was recommended on the basis of her qualifications is beyond your comprehension). Bubbles is absolutely right: if you weren't savvy enough to get the internships when you were in school and to take the shit jobs when you were in your early 20s (or while you worked to put yourself through school), it's not the fault of either actors or illegal immigrants that you're not employable now. Nor is it your parents' responsibility to structure their social contacts so that you won't have to work to prove yourself as the rest of us did. Not everyone here comes from some publishing dynasty, as you seem to like to believe. And yes, some people DO enter the media workforce on the basis of ability and not just connections. You can either establish your credentials and forge your own connections, or you can burn all your energy making bitter, resentful excuses for not having done so. As for your math: This guy's income is ZERO. So your dismissal of that $9/hour Starbucks job as leaving him with insufficient income is interesting: by my calculation, at 40 hours a week, post taxes, he'd have $1200/month more income than he has now. I'm not clear on how $1200 works out to be less sufficient than zero. What economy do YOU live in? |
| brianvan0711 | Posted – 1/20/2005 10:29:57 AM | show profile | email poster Hey, they want you to work unpaid overtime at that one job now. Seriously, I like the ''work your ass off'' strategy. I have 3 jobs and I'm trying to start a business on the side as well. But it's hell. You can really screw up your whole life if something goes wrong. No one wants to be too poor or too far in debt down the road to raise a family. I worked 3 internships. They were all dead ends. None of them had the effectiveness for the student - me - that anyone on here claims that they have. That's why I always play devil's advocate on that trend. I think they can be useful - but as a prerequisite, it's just forced slave labor for rich kids - and a barrier to entry for the middle class and the poor. Working IS a great way to get experience and get your start in the industry. The more you can do it when you're young, the better. So who's hiring? |
| foodlit | Posted – 1/20/2005 10:32:11 AM | show profile don't knock it til you try it Seriously, waitering and bartending is really the way to go for several reasons. First of all, the money is a hell of a lot better than Starbucks, and it gives you flexibility, especially if you work the night shift. You can still interview, AND take temp jobs that could lead to perm. And I don't care how bad the economy is, if you try hard enough and are flexible, you can get work. Yes, it might be below your standards, if you are foolish enough to view waitering/bartending/temping that way, but if you're not getting the entry-level media jobs, you don't have many other REAL options, do you? Except whining and complaining and taking a 'woe is me' attitude. Do something about it. |
| lvanderkam | Posted – 1/20/2005 10:37:53 AM | show profile As a late-20-something (well, early late 20-something) myself, I enjoyed reading the Time article on Twixters ... for the vicarious thrill. It made me glad I decided I wanted to work in the journalism business in late high school. It made me glad I then found internships at newspapers or magazines every summer during college, then got an editorial assistant type job for the year after college, then leveraged those contacts into my current full-time freelance writing/editing life, which is paying the bills nicely now. The useful thing I took from the Twixter article is that when my husband and I have children, we will talk with them about careers and what they'd like to do with their lives, and the steps they'll take to get there -- and not just schedule every activity for them, and make life easy for them, so they can focus on getting into good colleges... where they'll then graduate and wonder why life isn't easy and they can't waltz into a nice job. Whew, that was fun. Rant over. |
| JeanMarie | Posted – 1/20/2005 10:43:56 AM | show profile | email poster If it's just a software issue.... Take advantage of your university resources. You have access to so much there. Get one of the tutorial books that takes your through small projects. Find out what classes use the software and take one. If you're not able (or willing) to put all your eggs in one basket and commit to a single career path, then do everything --- network. Finally, find like-minded people who are successful to spend time with. The world is full of people who abandoned their dreams ''temporarily'' to get a job slingin' coffee or shopping carts. Most of them are cranky now. |
| brianvan0711 | Posted – 1/20/2005 10:47:10 AM | show profile | email poster No ''woe is me'' attitude here. I question the waitstaff/bartending thing because, while it seems like a practical suggestion, it doesn't take into account the difficulty involved in getting such a job. Those were the types of jobs everyone ran to when the layoffs started happening. But I'll add a disclaimer: I'm in NYC, and that's an important piece of my frame of reference. I do know for a fact that it's easier anywhere else to do what's being outlined here. So I'm kinda being a troll by arguing further if this isn't an NYC conversation. My point about this being a media advice question thread still stands. No one's touched the heart of the original question yet. |
| newnametoday | Posted – 1/20/2005 11:07:28 AM | show profile i don't really know what specific advice to give the OP because he's never stated what kind of job he wants. writing? editing? tv? film? if he wants to break into the entertainment industry, as a producer or something like that, the best advice i can give is to regularly check sites like craigslist that have crew listings. a ton of low/no budget productions are constantly looking for PAs, entry level grips and associate producers. it might not pay the bills but it gets you a hell of a lot closer to actual real work. you never know who you will end up meeting; my boyfriend, who's a DP, worked on a really crappy indie movie when he first started out (with little to no pay) which he has parlayed into many paying gigs. |
| bow | Posted – 1/20/2005 11:10:51 AM | show profile I feel you I'm in a similar position to the original poster, though it sounds like I've been a bit luckier. I'm the same age (29) and I've written and directed three semi-successful feature films. For the past six years, I've freelanced pretty regularly for big men's and women's mags -- this is how I make all of my money -- yet I cannot be taken seriously whenever I apply for a full-time media job. I usually get to the 2nd or 3rd interview, and then realize that they're just keeping me around as the token dark horse, somebody who's perhaps fascinating to interview, but no way in hell are they going to trust me with a full-time position. Like a previous poster has mentioned, despite my solid experience and proven ability to produce, essentially I HAVE NEVER HELD A JOB. I know that I am willing to give up all of this film and freelancing for the right job... but the employers don't know that. They just see a creative guy who might decide to make another movie next year and suddenly leave their company. I can see it from their POV and I totally understand. But it is frustrating. |
| ideefixe | Posted – 1/20/2005 11:39:10 AM | show profile Bow--I work in TV and I'd be reluctant to hire yoiu because I'd need proof that you can take my direction for a piece. You might want to do a spec PSA or ad, just to have something on your reel that speaks to a specific (ie, client's) purpose, rather than your own vision. Scottandrew--what career do you want? Unproduced, unpublished work doesn't impress me. Sorry to be harsh but just because you've cranked out 2 screenplays doesn't mean anything other than you sat still for a while. If you want a job in media, get a PA job, work hard, network, and see where it takes you. If you want income, brush up your typing, clean up and get a temp gig. The most interesting, creative career doesn't just appear, like money from the tooth fairy. |
| frantic | Posted – 1/20/2005 11:58:15 AM | show profile not the same Actually, Bow, your situation doesn't really sound the same at all. That you've actually made films (semi-successful ones) and made good money writing for major publications, indicates that you know how to work and can support yourself. The simple fact that you haven't been on staff anywhere doesn't mean you haven't had a job-- freelancing to make a living (not just as an occasional hobby) is a job. I work for a major consumer magazine and I can tell you that we take talented freelancers very seriously when they apply for staff positions. We can understand why they might want to make the move (trading their relative freedom for stability and benefits), and if we know and appreciate the quality of their work, they will get a closer look than most applicants. Your comment about being a ''token dark horse'', however, made me laugh. I seriously doubt many people in this business have the time to waste on ''fascinating'' interviews with 20-something dark horses. But if you lose the attitude, make it clear that you want a permanent gig and won't be flying off on a whim to take on another movie or whatever, I see no reason why you wouldn't have a shot. The original poster, on the other hand, has never had a job nor does he seem to have made a name for himself creatively. He didn't mention whether any of his lengthy list of plays and screenplays were ever produced, or if his novel was published. He did say his articles were published, unpaid. And that he worked for a few days as a proofreader. What's the big surprise that this unemployed 29-year-old parent-supported student who doesn't even have the gumption to take a class in software mentioned as prerequisites in job ads doesn't have a job? Of course he doesn't have a job. My guess is that he has the disease that so many little ''twixters'' (whatever the hell that is) have today-- he thinks real jobs are beneath him. He doesn't want to sacrifice any of the personal creative time that he thinks the world owes him, he doesn't want to fetch anyone's coffee or handle anyone's expense reports or send anyone's fedex packages. He certainly doesn't want to wait tables (and yes, Brian, even in New York it is possible to wait tables. try harder. talk to people-- let everyone you know know you're looking, and you can find something. I know this firsthand). He says he wants entry-level--well, entry level means humility. Maybe he needs to get some. Maybe he needs to work hard at getting the skills needed for entry level. Maybe he should temp and try to turn a short-term position into fulltime by impressing the hell out of his bosses. It's done all the time by people who want it bad enough. The problem is not that jobs aren't available. Those ''experts'' who are telling your whole generation that ''it's the economy, stupid'' are doing so because you are paying them (or your parents are) and they want to justify their own existence. The problem is that there aren't jobs for 29-year-olds with no experience that will allow them to live in the style they've become accustomed to at their parents' houses. If they had any sense at all, those parents would kick their lazy adult children right out on the street. What he needs to do is grow up. Have some dignity. And maybe rework that resume one more time to focus on skills and whatever real-world work experience he actually has. And Scott-- I agree with floruja-- if you chose not to get a job after graduating in 1999, shame on you. You wasted possibly the best economic opportunity that will ever come your way. |
| brianvan0711 | Posted – 1/20/2005 12:19:15 PM | show profile | email poster Why is everyone making such harsh judgements about the original poster? He says he's been scouting around for entry level positions, and he's seen recruiters. He's been writing in his spare time. He didn't ever add in whether or not he was working jobs on the side (some people do work side jobs + live at home with the parents indefinitely, and I don't see what's so shameful about that). Some of you are talking to him like he's a bum. Jeez. On the other hand, he never clarified what exact job track he was trying to get into, so there's really nothing specific that anyone could suggest... |
| Page 1 of 6 |
|
