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Topic: How would you answer this?
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| Author | Message |
| westlass | Posted – 1/28/2005 5:23:29 AM | show profile Just been asked to give a fixed fee for a freelance commission (from my former employer). The commissioning editor sent me the following response to my quote: This is a bit beyond our budget at the moment and I don't think it would be appropriate to 'haggle'!! It's useful to see how these kind of assignments shape up in terms of your charging method, and I'm sure that eventually we'll identify the types of features which fit both our needs - ie yield a good return for you, while being within our budgets. Let's leave it this time, and I'll keep an eye out for projects to offer you which are a bit kinder on the payment structure... I would be interested in taking on the feature, but how/should I go back and renegotiate without seeming weak or underselling myself? |
| eriksherman | Posted – 1/28/2005 5:40:07 AM | show profile Since the editor doesn't want to ''haggle'' and also seems to want to figure out what assignments would make sense for you, why not just ask what typically they would budget for something like this? Is it really a bit beyond, or totally out of the question. Just say that you're also trying to learn about what will work. That should give you the parameters to see whether you could do it for them without bending over so far backwards that you'd be a shoe-in for the bronze medal in China in a few years. ------ Author of "Geocaching: Hike and Seek with Your GPS" - hidden at a bookstore near you... |
| caitlinkelly | Posted – 1/28/2005 11:10:09 AM | show profile Since you've already established a relationship with them, it can't hurt to go back and ask some questions about their wiggle room...It's not uncommon to run into editorial discomfort with ''haggling'' but it's something every freelancer faces on every assignment. (Ending the negotiation before it even starts is also an effective way to make sure you can't ask for more.) Especially with newspaper people, who may never have freelanced, and negotiated (vs. mag editors who are more likely to have done so), it's a process of education as well. I don't think it makes you look weak. There are a few ways you might make the deal work better for you...If the pay rate is too low, can they cut their word length (i.e. your reporting and writing time?) Can they link the story to your website, driving more traffic, possibly including other editors? ------ Freelance writer Caitlin Kelly, has written for The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post and other publications. You can read samples from her new book at blownawaythebook.com |
| limericks4all | Posted – 1/28/2005 11:12:20 AM | show profile I think the best thing is to ask what they normally pay for something like this. I saw your other post and it's possible the fee they have in mind might be a tenth of what you intially asked. And, yup, if you take a lower fee, that will scale down their expectations of what they would need to pay you in the future. My guess is when the editor said she didn't want to haggle that meant she considered your request so high it wasn't worth talking about. It's very possible, also, that she was blowing smoke about future features. In my experience most magazines have a fairly standard fee that is usually dependent on how long the piece is, not how much work it takes. Often the fee will be the same whether the research is 3 hours worth of telephone calls or 3 days worth of travel and in-person interviews. |
| even_newer-id | Posted – 1/28/2005 11:40:43 AM | show profile Drop it!!! I'm going to argue against going back to the editor. Leave it. Your price was too high but she's going to keep you in mind for future projects. This is business. My stepfather told me years ago that if you don't lose some business over your prices, you're not charging enough. That was good sound advice. It's nervewracking to watch a client or a potential client walk away, but if you want to boost your income, it has to happen. Send an e-mail saying your sorry it didn't work out this time but you're interested for future work that fits both your budgets. Don't renegotiate this particular deal because no matter what you call it, you will be underselling yourself. You have to learn to walk away and use the time you would have spent on this project bringing in higher paying work. |
| eriksherman | Posted – 1/28/2005 12:01:45 PM | show profile >> I'm going to argue against going back to the editor. Leave it. Your price was too high but she's going to keep you in mind for future projects. This is business. << The reason to go back is to find out what their limits are - its more for deciding what to pitch them in the future than doing the piece now. That way westlass wouldn't waste time by proposing something whose scope would never be met by the amount of money the publisher could or would spend. ------ Author of "Geocaching: Hike and Seek with Your GPS" - hidden at a bookstore near you... |
| CumbersomePsyche | Posted – 1/28/2005 12:12:14 PM | show profile Kindness? The only thing that struck me about that response was the use of the word ''kindness.'' As if you asking your price was an ungenerous act. That would have completely annoyed me and made me avoid workign with that person in future. It always happens that there are people who want things for less and that is just how it goes, but to frame it in such terms seems to me a bit unbusinesslike and rather a personal attack. I would respond saying '' Perhaps in the future there will be projects in which you will be a bit kinder on the payment structure.'' |
| even_newer-id | Posted – 1/28/2005 12:43:16 PM | show profile Erik, she used to work at this company. she should have a pretty good idea of what they pay. Cumbersome, if I could walk away from every editor whose phrases I didn't like!!! Geez, y'day someone told me to think outside the box, but I'm still working for him. BOttom line: DO NOT RENEGOTIATE THE PRICE FOR THIS ASSIGNMENT. YOu had reasons for setting the price you did and, presumably they were good ones. Editors do come back to you sometimes on these assignments -- not always but sometimes -- and when they come back, they give you what you wanted because the other cheaper writer has just left them high and dry. |
| clare04 | Posted – 1/28/2005 3:38:45 PM | show profile a gesture goes further sometimes at first when i read this, i thought, your asking fee was way out of their ballpark. they are basically letting you know, not to quote them that high again and also that in future they'll quote you, so to speak. (if they ever do) it could be that from their view, you've offended them just a tad by asking so high given that you had this previous relationship with them and how they perceive that - i sense slightly ruffled feathers in very mannered language of theirs. so what you could do to smooth it out is go to them and say, look i can do this assignment for you for less - like the first assignment you do for them is going to be a bit more give on your side than take to get off on the right foot etc. -- philippa |
| even_newer-id | Posted – 1/28/2005 4:16:04 PM | show profile see, this is the problem. you're getting advice telling you to do it for less because you've ruffled their feathers. sure, do it for less if you want. but if you want to make more money, then don't do it for less. find clients that pay more. Remember everyone, negotiating means you have to be able to walk away if you don't get your minimum price. Honestly, I've walked away from deals and months later, the people have come back to me and given me what I've wanted. NOt everyone, no. sometimes they didn't have the budget which is fine because I don't want to work for people who can't pay me what I want no matter how nice they are. |
| westsidestory | Posted – 1/28/2005 4:34:16 PM | show profile I agree with new ID I interpet your exchange as: they think they can get you cheap because you used to work there. My reasoned response would be: you deserve a higher level of pay than the average freelancer, because you have a track record of reliability and are thoroughly familiar with the organization's style. Thus, you ARE worth more than some other writer, and it's up to you to remind them of the many reasons why it's worth their while to fork over the extra cash. I'd say any reponse back might, in a friendly way, say the price you quoted ''reflects my experience and my track record as a reliable writer'' or something like that. You might add that if they wanted to contract for multiple articles you would give them a discount. The win-win for them is they get solid work from a reliable supplier, and you don't feel all aggrieved that you gave away the store. That's how to give them wiggle room: offer a volume discount. And, I would respond by telephone, not by email, if you can. It is a lot easier to negotatiate by voice than by print, as long as you remember the key phrase ''let me get back to you on that'' if you feel the situation is getting out of hand. If that doesn't work, the worse thing they can say about you is, ''s/he's too expensive'' and that's not so bad really. And you will have worked on your negotiating skills. |
| clare04 | Posted – 1/28/2005 4:45:18 PM | show profile deal's not a business rel-p new ID walks away from ''deals'' like car sales and they come back. great. however, the editor - writer relationship has a bit more nuance, fortunately. if the poster wants a one-time pay-off then find another client. i fully agree. but to build a relationship that yields income in the future with ex-colleagues, no less - whose pricing levels should be well known to the poster and maybe that's the problem from the publication's viewpoint not sure if that was mentioned so far that the poster over-stepped what should be known to them - there has to be real negotiation, which is about give and take. if the outlet can't pay this writer, they'll pay someone else period. it really depends on whether clients are in abundance for the writer. otherwise, it really does pay to ''negotiate.'' |
| even_newer-id | Posted – 1/28/2005 5:46:55 PM | show profile If you want nuance clare, try the fact that I said some come back, some don't. What I most certainly did not say is that they all come back. Over the years I've observed that many people negotiate without understanding that the ultimate card you have is to walk away. If you end up agreeing to eveyt single deal is not necessarily a signed that you're a skilled negotiator but rather that you've set your prices too low. And yep, in many ways this is like buying a car. |
| AIC | Posted – 1/28/2005 6:56:19 PM | show profile I must admit that I don't have an answer for westlass, but the discussion is very, very interesting. See, I have a HORRENDOUS time negotiating. (And would have a really hard time in your shoes, westlass!) So, I am curious how all of you would suggest learning to do so. I am currently starting out, and I must say, I took some VERY low pay at first. This is how I made the transition and jump. But I want to know how best to put myself in a stronger position now--without letting all potential clientelle go off to other pastures... Any suggestions how to get a better feel for this? Thank you! ------ Scientific Communications Writing, Editing, and Web Content |
| angelo | Posted – 1/28/2005 7:49:48 PM | show profile The message sounds like there was an established price. Was there a bid involved? What was your offer? If you worked there before, do you know what they usually pay? It sounds to me like they're saying they like your work but they don't want to pay as much as X. At least you're at this point in the negotiation; some ex-employees wouldn't get this far :) The rest is up to you. If you're asking this board for an estimate then you have to be more specific about word count, amount of effort to write the piece, how much you are willing to be paid vs. work involved, etc. |
| westlass | Posted – 1/29/2005 5:49:39 AM | show profile Thank you all so much for your detailed replies. I'm very grateful for all your insights and suggestions. I wanted to explain a little more about my relationship with the company and give you an update. I did two freelance pieces in December, which they needed urgently, and negotiated a fee that was higher than their usual freelance charges, because of my experience and the fact that I presented the article subbed, with images, and in a print-ready state. At the time, I suggested that if they wanted to use me for a regular series of features this year, we could negotiate a favorable rate (still above their usual freelance charges). The editor rejected this idea and said she'd prefer to work on an article-by-article basis. Fine. I then had an e-mail from her for this article, requesting that I do this article quick smart. It entailed three days away from the office and another day of writing/interviews. She asked me for a fixed fee. I quoted $1620, lower than my usual rate, but I knew she would balk at anything higher. After her message, which I posted here earlier, I got back in touch. Kept it light: Good to hear from you. This is new to both of us, so it would be great to find a balance that suits us both. This assignment is quite different to the usual features, so can you tell me what you would consider to be a fair price for the amount of work/time/travel involved? Even if we don't go ahead with this piece, it would be useful to know for the future. She came back with: It's a difficult one really, because I totally respect (and admire) your plans and think it's fantastic that you can command these rates - good on ya!. I don't want to meddle with this really. You know the rates we pay freelance journalists, and although I think it's entirely fair for us to pay a premium to you because of your expertise, we need to balance this with a respect to other writers in terms of fairness with fees. I think the way forward is for us to find things which you can do within our fee structure at the rate you've plumped for and I'll look out for suitable projects and be in touch as soon as I find them. So, doesn't look like I've burned my bridges, but I will walk away from this assignment. At least each of us is a little clearer now about how we might work together for the future. Thanks again for everyone's help! |
| even_newer-id | Posted – 1/29/2005 11:56:54 AM | show profile Westlass, sounds good. Is the editor an Ozzie? That might explain to cumbersomepsyche why she goes in for that bizarre (to us) use of ''kindness.'' AIC, it is tough to learn negotiate effectively expecially when you're relatively new to the field. Truth is I didn't negotiate anything at the start. I took what I was given and was happy to. I think if you want to negotiate effectively you have to do a few things: 1) Learn the going rates for different orgs. and what other people are earning. Best way to do this is talk since most salary surveys are skewed and resources like Writer's Guidelines are basically hopeless. 2) Ask yourself honestly what you're worth within this salary context. 3) Decide what you want to earn per project, what you're willing to accept and at what point you're willing to let it go. 4) Come up with some non-financial negotiating possibilities. Westside story suggests a multi-article contract, for example. 5) don't be fooled into thinking that the object of negotiations is to simply get a deal. the object is to get a deal that YOU ARE HAPPY WITH. It doesn't mean a damn thing if you get deals you're not happy with. 6) Be prepared to let things go as anxiety-provoking as it may be. When I first went from being a wimp to a negotiator, I treated all financial discussions as a power sturggle for a while. That was pretty dumb of me. What I realized was that in negotiations what you want is for both sides to come out happy with the deal. And you also have to accept that that's not always possible -- not necessarily because there''s bad will on either side but just because sometimes it doesn't work given the budgets involved. |
| clare04 | Posted – 1/29/2005 3:14:47 PM | show profile more blunders new id, i can just about guarantee you that an australian professional working in new york would not use the words ''kinder payment structure'' it sticks out a mile to anyone who is educated as bad english. curious though, what made ya pick ozzie, anyway ? more likely to skew the lingo ? try hanging round new york for ... half a day !!! anyway, it sounds more like the use of the term kinder etc is just cumbersome because, as i said, the writer made the editor awkward by asking for what the editor clearly saw (see westlass's most recent, elucidating post on how she knew their fees but had the 'gall' to go higher as an fresh out of the barn freelancer and then see her editor's response) ... as too much. the thing that might turn me off as an editor dealing with someone with your approach, new id, is that you think there's a horse that doesn't need a cart. In English, i.e., you're the horse and it's all about you and your somewhat boorish terms: what you practically dictate to someone who actually says she has a pool of other writers she wants to play fair to etc. (someone with some scruples and loyalty in other words). But hat's off to you new id for really doing homework, fueling this and getting me going on a discussion !! philippa |
| even_newer-id | Posted – 1/30/2005 6:43:10 AM | show profile does anyone but an Ozzie (or a Kiwi) say ''good on ya?'' Or maybe it's becoming fashionable elsewhere but we non-New Yorkers are too out of it to know. anyway Clare, I'm sorry, I don't believe in going cart alone without horse. I believe in finding another horse. Also not down with this ''be fair to everyone'' ny paying them all the same approach. Writers have different levels of experience and ability and the compensation should reflect that. Certainly I can see from an editor's point of view why they don't want word getting out that one writer's making more than everyone else, but, as the situation is described here, that writer deserved it. anyway, I'm not against being diplomatic and professional and polite. I'm just against thinking that the ultimate goal is to come to an agreement even if it's an unsatisfactory one. Hope westlass (and that doesn't sound like upperwestsisdelass to me) comes back and settles the Ozzie question for us. and good on ya everyone!!!! |
| even_newer-id | Posted – 1/30/2005 7:42:23 AM | show profile whoops, should definitely not post before coffee becuz I tend to mix up carts and horses. Obviously that should be find another cart. clare, i just think you're too worried about ruffling editors' feathers and making them feel awkward. Editors have to negotiate as part of their job. some are better at it than others. The bottom line for most editors is that they don't have that much to negotiate with. Their budgets are pretty well fixed. This particular editor didn't sound the slightest bit put off to me. It sounded like she recognized the limits of her budget and congratulated westlass on being able to break into higher-paying markets. Honestly, reasonable editors understand when you move on to higher paying markets and you shouldn't be tying yourself up in knots to cater to unreasonable ones. another key that we're not dealing with yanks here -- use of the term subbing. could be Brit could be Ozzie but last time I was in New York, they weren't calling people subs except over at the Post. |
| westlass | Posted – 1/30/2005 8:01:48 AM | show profile Glad to see my post has prompted such an interesting debate! To settle your question, even_newer-id and clare04, we're both Brits, though the magazine has an international circulation. Thanks again for sharing your transatlantic perspective. I wish everyone well who's taken the time to share their views with me. I hope I can do the same for others on here in future. |
| clare04 | Posted – 1/30/2005 12:19:53 PM | show profile you're welcome new id, i totally agree about the caffeine factor. it's one universal you can bet on. like you, i can not think straight about subs and good on yer mate and all those other dead cultural giveaways without my morning fix. and frankly, i mixed the whole cart and horse thing up -- terribly !! you shoulda shot me down there ... so anyway, i don't care about ruffling feathers. editors have something more substantial covering them, i have noted. of course, they're great hagglers by trade and have a system of unfairness working for 'em and we writers have to be aware. and i think you have learned to be good at it and dodging the worst of it and walking away with what you want .... all i was doing was interpreting that bit of mindboggling awkward polite editor-speak for westlass and reminding her how she might be coming across to someone like that as a ''newbie.'' actually, she really shoulda told us she was talking about the land of tea and crumpets and subs...worse than old new york, surely!!! having spent some time there, i can tell you, you do have to read the awkwardness factor. even westlass was having trouble understanding it. i would guess that she was dealing with someone who has been around london for a while, dealing in handwritten letters and ''kinder payments'' and all this stuff and is horrified by this generation of go-getting fee-quoting digital freelancer ... !! only a guess. i think we have sorted westlass out now from over here and it's been fun, actually.... philippa |
| eriksherman | Posted – 1/30/2005 1:42:09 PM | show profile AIC wrote: >> See, I have a HORRENDOUS time negotiating. (And would have a really hard time in your shoes, westlass!) So, I am curious how all of you would suggest learning to do so. I am currently starting out, and I must say, I took some VERY low pay at first. << You might seriously consider getting some books on negotiation technique. There are different approaches (some believe in win-win, some think that the approach makes someone a sitting duck), so flip through some book and see if any resonate with you. In a way, it won't matter which you choose. Any deliberate approach to negotiation is bound to help, because facing someone and asking for what you want is often a good 80% of the battle. ------ Author of "Geocaching: Hike and Seek with Your GPS" - hidden at a bookstore near you... |
| angelo | Posted – 1/30/2005 2:44:16 PM | show profile There's still not enough information about the nature of the assignment for me to consider how much is enough for the job. I can think of a few assignments I'd do that involved travel and 4 days of work for less than $1,500 or even $1,200. I can also think of assignments I wouldn't do for that price. It really depends on other factors. I presume the travel expenses would be paid and that after four days, the assignment is done. I guess it depends on how much you would make in that period of time otherwise. If you end up not earning for that period, then it's a financial loss. If you have other things you can do in that time that would bring you more money than they're willing to pay for this assignment, then it's a gain. And there's another factor: having a dependable series of gigs with this publisher. Sometimes it's better to take less if you think it will result in a steady income stream for the year(s). Many freelancers I know love to have a dependable monthly gig with a publication even if it pays less than desireable rates. It allows them to know more about their future income for financial planning, and they use these jobs to fill in the down time. (And unless you're an incredibly prolific freelancer with tons of contacts, you have down time when you aren't earning.) I know you're saying that they aren't interested in committing to a permanent writer gig, but if you've already written two articles for them it looks like it's heading in that direction. Whatever the case may be, it looks like you've neither burned a bridge nor established yourself as a freelancer for them that deserves more than what they usually pay. I'd say it's a stalemate with future potential. |
| SFElisaW | Posted – 1/30/2005 3:11:47 PM | show profile Hold your ground... My read on this is that the editor appreciates that you know your worth. I suspect that she's going to use your bid to go back to her boss and try and get some more in the budget. I think she's trying to tell you that she doesn't think there is enough allocated for /this/ project to make it worth your while. And she may be right. I completely agree with the poster who said if a few people aren't complaining about your prices you aren't charging enough. I'd go back to her with your head held high and say that you're looking forward to working with her on projects in the future. Good luck! Onward and upward! |
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