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Topic: The Copy Editing Test Did Me In
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| Author | Message |
| Jen480 | Posted – 2/7/2005 5:22:48 PM | show profile How important is it to do well on a copy editing test in order to get an EA job at a magazine? I just got a rejection letter in the mail saying that the reason I didn't make the final cut was b/c I wasn't one of the top 3 finishers on a copy editing test. Only the top 3 were interviewed. It totally sucks, b/c I have a killer resume, great references & tons of clips. If only I could've had an interview, I know I would've impressed the pants off of them! It totally sucks! Sorry to keep rambling, I'm just feeling a bit dejected right now...I could understand this for a copy desk chief position, but come on, it's an EA for heaven's sakes! |
| fourfold | Posted – 2/7/2005 6:40:20 PM | show profile Hey Jen: sounds like a large part of what you would have been doing is proofreading. EA duties vary widely, according to what each magazine needs. It does seem rather arbitrary to interview only the top three finishers and not take into account other factors such as clips and education. |
| nychippy | Posted – 2/7/2005 10:42:08 PM | show profile Don't underestimate the importance of these tests. As you climb the magazine ranks, you'll soon be taking hardcore *editing* tests, which are even more involved and grueling. And they absolutely decide whether you land that coveted job or not. Think of these tests as the publishing equivalent of the SATs, and treat them according: Study, take practice exams, have a friend quiz you, etc. No joke. True story: After completing a teeth-gnashing editing test for one of the Seven Sister mags, I finally landed a coveted senior editor position. A month into the job, my hiring editor returned my clip portfolio—not realizing that my editing test, complete with all of her comments and the comments of the EIC, was inadvertently included. It was incredibly eye-opening, and one of the best things that ever happened to me. They had critiqued my edit and my ideas, and even wrote notes in the margin about how I conducted myself during the interview. |
| Astera | Posted – 2/7/2005 11:10:41 PM | show profile Having been a copy editor myself, I think copy editing is an extremely important, though often overlooked, aspect of any magazine editorial job. Most of the copy-editing tests I have taken test fairly basic spelling and grammar skills. If you don't have those, then how serious can you really be about a career in journalism? I personally believe that good writing and editing starts with an understanding of the basics of grammar and usage. Also, at the last magazine I worked at, layouts were circulated among the entire editorial team, EA included, and we were all expected to read them and catch errors, so good copy editing skills were a must for everyone. I think there's a huge amount of competition for EA jobs, so lots of people go in with good resumes and clips. The test is one way for them to objectively cull the applicants. I'm sorry you got cut this time. I just went through an exhausting job search myself, so I know how tough and demoralizing it can be. But you CAN study for these copy editing tests...read and study the AP Style Guide, and check out Web sites like copydesk.com and copyeditor.com for more info. You may not want to be solely a copy editor, but trust me, good copy editing skills will only help you in this field. ------ adeventuresofastera.blogspot.com copyeditrix.blogspot.com |
| Jen480 | Posted – 2/7/2005 11:16:12 PM | show profile >> But you CAN study for these copy editing tests...read and study the AP Style Guide The thing that is really frustrating is that all through college & at all of my internships, we solely used the AP Style Guide. The magazine that rejected me uses Chicago Style, so I had to run out to the library & check out a copy, since I'd never used one before. If the test was done in AP, that job would've been mine. |
| SFElisaW | Posted – 2/8/2005 1:12:47 AM | show profile They probably did you a favor... Despite the title, they may have expected you to do more copyediting than you anticipated. At some magazines with small staffs, the ''copy desk'' does triple-time sourcing photos, laying out pages and writing captions. It really varies by publication. I asked for an in-house style guide from a magazine I was writing for and the editor laughed and said, ''We don't give them out anymore because people spent too much time obsessing about whether we were doing the right thing.'' She said VERY respectfully that she understood that style guidelines varied from magazine to magazine and she expected me to write coherently and leave the details to them. Another magazine (that paid horribly) sent out weekly updates insisting that all writers adhere to their constantly shifting policies. They got VERY upset if you didn't study their latest edict and adjust your story accordingly, despite the fact that they were set by the publisher (ie not a writer) and usually weren't logical. I tried to comply for two or three stories and then refused to take additional assignments. It just wasn't worth the hassle. I'm a writer and editor, not copy edit. And I FULLY respect what copy editors do for a job!!!! Here's a job tip if you're an editor: save extreme examples of ''Before'' and ''After'' editing. I applied for a job a few months ago asked for that instead of an editing test and I was scrambling for examples. Who saves hideous writing? I ended up turning in edits from a lawyer friend's website, which wasn't exactly right but it did the trick. I'm saving examples now... |
| Astera | Posted – 2/8/2005 1:16:23 AM | show profile Jen480, I sympathize. I've gotten lucky in that all the mags I've worked for used AP, but I guess a lot of the ''big ones'' use Chicago. I bought a copy and I'm trying to learn it in case I ever have to take a test that uses that style, but it's tough. Still, I think it's really good to know both. Sometimes I wish I had experience using AMA style...seems like medical copy editors can make a bundle! |
| commawonk | Posted – 2/8/2005 10:11:37 AM | show profile Chicago style cheat sheet If you're trying to learn Chicago style for magazines, you only have to know a small fraction of the whole book. (Most of the rules apply to book publishing anyway.) Plus, most magazines don't use pure AP or pure Chicago anyway for their house styles—they go primarily by one or the other (occasionally both) and throw their own rules into the mix. In my experience, here's all you need to know: * First and foremost, Chicago calls for the serial comma (''apples, oranges, and bananas'') where AP doesn't. * Where AP abbreviates, Chicago likes to spell things out (''St. Paul, Minn.'' vs. ''Saint Paul, Minnesota''). * In general, AP uses numerals for numbers above 10 and for most measurements. Chicago generally spells out numbers up to 100 and round numbers over 100 (for space reasons, most magazines prefer AP rules here). Also—and this is a fine distinction—Chicago uses all numerals for like numbers within the same sentence or graf when the numbers are a mix of those that are normally spelled out and those that aren't (''One room contained 8 chairs, and the other one contained 101''). * When a person goes by his or her initials, Chicago puts a space between them where AP doesn't (''E. M. Forster'' vs. ''E.M. Forster''). * Chicago prefers apostrophe + ''s'' to form possessives of proper names ending with ''s''; AP just uses an apostrophe (''Dickens's novels'' vs. ''Dickens' novels''). * AP caps prepositions of four or more letters in heds and titles; Chicago lowercases prepositions (''Life With Lucy'' vs. ''Life with Lucy''). * AP styles most titles of works (books, movies, TV shows) in roman type and enclosed in quotation marks; Chicago uses italic and no quotation marks. * AP puts spaces before and after ellipses, but not between the dots ( ... ); Chicago puts spaces before and after as well as between ( . . . ). * Chicago uses en dashes between numerical ranges (1914–1918) and in modifers containing open, or nonhyphenated, compounds (''New York–based writer''); AP uses hyphens. * Chicago leaves many compound adjectives unhyphenated when they follow nouns (''the book was well known''); AP generally keeps the hyphen before and after the noun. |
| angelo | Posted – 2/8/2005 10:18:46 AM | show profile It happens to a lot of us print media people at one time or another. In a time of post-9-11 desperation I once applied for a CE post at Businessewire. They gave me a test that was so challenging that I wondered how anyone could have sifted through it. I failed miserably, knew it, and didn't even check back with the guy. I didn't want to be editing that stuff anyway. I was a bike messenger for a few months instead (late 2001/early 2002), and - I swear - I made almost as much money as I would have made as starting overnight copyeditor at Businesswire (with no health plan after three months, though). I find this kind of sad, because if I had to choose between biking around Manhattan all day getting into shape or copyediting business-lingo and financial statements. . . give me the streets if it's going to be comparable pay! So the moral of the story is move on. You might look back at failing the CE test and realize it was for the best anyway. |
| commawonk | Posted – 2/8/2005 10:23:48 AM | show profile Also, bookmark these sites: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.html http://www.titivillus-editorial.com/tes-stylchk-ap-cms.htm |
| Marie | Posted – 2/8/2005 11:30:11 AM | show profile When you take these tests, most places aren't that concerned with your adherence to a specific style, be it Chicago or AP. What they want to see in the manuscript you copyedit, aside from your knowledge of syntax and spelling and grammar and parallel structure (every writers biggest downfall, unless they've been copy editors), is that you choose one style, and stick to it. If adjectival color compounds are hyphenated in one place, hyphenate or delete the hyphens everywhere. Be consistent in the way you handle numbers. Same with things like art terms. It doesn't matter if you know what Chicago or AP does with regard to capping or not capping these terms, or spelling or not spelling out numbers, it's that you show you understand what it means to carry out a style, whatever it is, consistently (or have a good reason for making an exception). No one really learns these styles by heart, nor are you expected to. Remember, the job is open book. If the magazine follows Chicago, you'll look these things up in Chicago and follow that style. People make way too big a deal about knowing one style or another. You could have probably just used AP style in this test, if that's what you knew--they're not testing knowledge of one style or another, but rather your awareness of choosing one style and sticking with it--more that you understand the concept of following a style. |
| Jen480 | Posted – 2/8/2005 11:48:17 AM | show profile Comma--Wow! Thanks for the tip sheet. I wish I knew this stuff before I took the test. It definitely was a challenge having to take a 3-part copy editing test & attempt to teach myself Chicago Style 101 at the same time. Marie--That's interesting that you bring up the point of consistency w/ one style & that I might have been able to complete the test in AP. I think I was so concerned with attempting to prove to them that I knew Chicago that I thought if I used AP, they'd toss my test in the can immediately. |
| Marie | Posted – 2/8/2005 12:32:53 PM | show profile Not at all-what's important in this test is your eye. You don't really learn Chicago--when you have a job that uses it, that's where you look things up, and bingo, you're using Chicago. Remember, jobs are open book. Editors or whoever is testing you are much more concerned that you grasp the concept of style than that you know a particular style by heart. Most test people will tell you not to get too concerned about following their style (they' dont' expect you to know it), just follow some style (and it can be your own, sort of!) consistently. Anyone can look stuff up in a book, once they're on the job. |
| even_newer-id | Posted – 2/8/2005 12:47:54 PM | show profile I agree with Marie and I've graded copy-edit tests. No sane editor expects a job candidate to have mastered a style guide they haven't worked with. In fact, sometimes you just have to mark ''according to style guide.'' At other times, they'll give you their style guide for the test. They're looking to see if you catch the obvious mistakes and flag the right things for style and spelling checks. |
| even_newer-id | Posted – 2/8/2005 12:49:07 PM | show profile It's ridiculous to expect someone to memorize a style guide for a test since real copy editors are consulting their style guides and dictionaries constantly. |
| Marie | Posted – 2/8/2005 1:16:13 PM | show profile Exactly. And that's why spelling tests are idiotic, too. Note to the misguided people who give them: Jobs are open book. You can misspell a few words in the editing sample you give, and see if the person corrects them or at least notes that he/she would double check the word in a dictionary. Good copy editors or editors don't necessarily walk around with all this stuff in their heads--they simply know what to look up. |
| commawonk | Posted – 2/8/2005 1:32:29 PM | show profile Agreed that a good copy test should gauge someone's eye for errors and feel for language and shouldn't put a lot of emphasis on style. At least a few tests I'm aware of, though, have an open-book portion where you're asked you to edit a passage or two according to AP or Chicago. If you don't already know the basics, you can waste a lot of time looking things up (especially in Chicago, which is four or five times as big as AP). As for spelling, I'm on the fence. I know several excellent copy editors who freely admit they can't spell. But they know to look things up, so it doesn't hold them back. On the other hand, I've run across some bad spellers who didn't even have the instinct to look things up. |
| Marie | Posted – 2/8/2005 1:49:39 PM | show profile If they don't have that instinct, they shouldn't become copy editors. |
| Jen480 | Posted – 2/8/2005 1:53:15 PM | show profile Going back to my original question, is it common for publications to dismiss you from the running b/c you didn't do a stellar job on their copy editing test? Getting rejected doesn't really bother me (it happens to the best of us, right?) It's the mere fact that they based their decision on who to interview by how well they did on a test. Is it just me, or is this kind of arbitrary? What about education, clips, references, communication skills, ambition, etc? I feel like they failed to take into account all these other aspects of a well-rounded candidate. I guess everyone has their weakness, mine is Chicago Style. Unfortuneately for me, it nailed me. |
| even_newer-id | Posted – 2/8/2005 2:06:35 PM | show profile Don't be so quick to believe you were nailed for not knowing Chicago. Maybe you were nailed because you ignored the fact the story was mis-sourced or some other big mistake. I was knocked out of the running for jobs twice due to the copy-editing tests (newspaper so we're talking headline writing skills here not just comma placement.) since, I'd never written headlines before I understood why mine were less than stellar. I also learned that on a test you have to keep moving and plow on through. third time, I got lucky. Jen, this may have been a little restrictive or it may have been reasonable. It''s hard to pass judgment without knowing more details. |
| DFS | Posted – 2/8/2005 2:48:14 PM | show profile Jen, it may be as straightforward as the mag told you in your rejection letter -- that you were not one of the top 3 finishers, and those were the people they planned to interview.Competition is fierce for these jobs, there are tons of qualified candidates, and so they have to winnow out somehow. Something about your test struck them wrong, or the other tests scored out of the ballpark,and there you have it. You seem diligent, and you've gotten good advice for the future here, so take this as a lesson and move on.Good luck! |
| Marie | Posted – 2/8/2005 2:58:40 PM | show profile And in their eyes, perhaps the editing skill was the one they valued most, that it was in their eyes what they needed for the job, and that this was more important, for that job, than writing or other jobs candidates have held or whatever else. I doubt you were eliminated because you didn't know Chicago, but more likely for some things you perhpas failed to query on a test, or just outright missed. I got eliminated once because I failed to query something inappropriate and possibly offensive in the text. I've since learned that if the copy sounds off in a test, it is, and it at least needs to be queried, even if you're not sure whether it should be cut from the story. Just query; they're looking for editorial and news judgment, too. You may have missed something potentially libelous, too. You might have been focusing so much on showing mastery of a style that you missed some big-picture itesm. I would just take all this advice and move on to your next interview. You'll do much better on your next test. You improve with practice. |
| tam_f | Posted – 2/8/2005 7:56:44 PM | show profile | email poster In my experience, the test has always been used to further narrow the field of applicants, not as the first hoop. Was it given as an open test, or were applicants invited to take it? Were all applicants invited? Without knowing your specific circumstances, I would guess that your resume and clips were what prompted them to give you the test in the first place. ------ freelance writing copy and content editing for businesses and authors http://editors-r-we.com |
| tam_f | Posted – 2/8/2005 7:57:20 PM | show profile | email poster In my experience, the test has always been used to further narrow the field of applicants, not as the first hoop. Was it given as an open test, or were applicants invited to take it? Were all applicants invited? Without knowing your specific circumstances, I would guess that your resume and clips were what prompted them to give you the test in the first place. ------ freelance writing copy and content editing for businesses and authors http://editors-r-we.com |
| tam_f | Posted – 2/8/2005 8:27:50 PM | show profile | email poster In my experience, the test has always been used to further narrow the field of applicants, not as the first hoop. Was it given as an open test, or were applicants invited to take it? Were all applicants invited? Without knowing your specific circumstances, I would guess that your resume and clips were what prompted them to give you the test in the first place. ------ freelance writing copy and content editing for businesses and authors http://editors-r-we.com |
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