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Topic: Call the book doctor
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| Author | Message |
| greg b | Posted – 9/27/2005 2:21:53 PM | show profile | email poster This week's Bulletin will be moderated by Tom Shess author of The Zoo, the MB Tool Box column which posts every Thursday. Tom is a budding novelist who is chronicling on Toolbox the ups and downs of searching for a publisher and/or literary agent for his first novel. (You can find this recurring column here: http://www.mediabistro.com/mbtoolbox/book_writin/default.asp) Tom says he's heard from many novice novelists who have shown interest in finding a book doctor. By 'book doctor,' we mean a professional editor who works with a novelist on concepting the novel; hammering out plot; and improving characterizations. A book doctor is different from a copy editor, who primarily focuses on grammar and spelling. ------ greg bloom community coordinator/wecare specialist mediabistro.com |
| greg b | Posted – 9/27/2005 2:22:17 PM | show profile | email poster continued But finding such book doctors is not as easy as it seems. And, there will probably be a financial price to pay for that valuable feedback. Of course (to suggest a much less expensive option), you can always network with fellow writers on the Bulletin Board and other writerly forums. I'll let Tom take it from here... ------ greg bloom community coordinator/wecare specialist mediabistro.com |
| TomShess | Posted – 9/27/2005 2:23:35 PM | show profile | email poster I’ve kept food on the table writing or editing for magazines all my career but as a novelist I’m pretty green. Everything is new. Every dilemma begins with what do I do now? And, modesty aside, I put myself in a category of a good beginner. I know how to put a story together but what I really crave right now with a completed mss. in hand is for an professional book editor to go under the hood and help me tune it or give it a complete overhaul. Corny as the cliché is I gotta be able to see the trees in the forest. For example, no matter how many times I reread the ending of my novel I found the other day that I had one minor character in two places at once. But I never have gone through the process of hiring a book editor. Do you have any experiences to share with the board about this delicate process? Let’s open it up for discussion. What should any new novelist expect when hiring a novel editor? What’s a fair price? How long should it take? |
| limericks4all | Posted – 9/27/2005 2:34:17 PM | show profile Personally, I think you're taking the wrong approach. Before I've even consider a book doctor, I'd get feedback through writers groups, either online or off. I am working on a novel now and am having it vetted by two online groups. That gives me as much feedback as I need. |
| TomShess | Posted – 9/27/2005 2:44:19 PM | show profile Rx Book Doctor As a rookie novelist I don't have the confidence to put it out to online sources as you suggest. I tend to be a point a to point b personality. My dad told me if I needed in any situation go to someone who you know is a professional. Having said that how do online vetting groups work. Where do you click to start? |
| bclampett | Posted – 9/27/2005 3:13:01 PM | show profile book doctor Hard to picture Tom as a ''budding'' novelist, since he's long been admired as an excellent literary craftsman and innovative editor with a quick grasp of just the right lead. I would agree that the search for a book doctor is an appraoch to be taken much later. Me? I'd send it to Peach (who told me you were s'posed to months ago) and others who's knack for criticism is ingrained. So—other writers first, book docs next, if still needed, which I doubt. Plus, a good book agent can provide much the same ''doctoring.'' Got get 'em. Chief. |
| wisernan | Posted – 9/27/2005 3:22:44 PM | show profile Tom the novelist I've read tom's novel, and it's as good as anything out there. publishers need to realize that the consumers are bypassing the media gatekeepers in newspapers and will soon pass them by as who can and can't be as popular as traditionally published authors. Wasn't it jerzy who got rejected for his very own published novel? So for all the tom shesses of the world, write like crazy, post in weekly in a blog and viral market your novel. don't wait for the slow as molasses literary agents and book publishers to discover how good you are. go tom! nwiser |
| TomShess | Posted – 9/27/2005 3:44:32 PM | show profile Book Rx first or later There's a hot condo developer in San Diego named Nat Bosa, who came into town a few years ago and built maybe ten new condos in the downtown area. A reporter asked him how can he build so many high rises in such a short time when other developers can't get out of the permit process with the city. His answer was find out what it takes to build a condo. Learn all the rules--comply with all the permits and let's get going. That's what I'm interested in doing with my new mss. There's a certain time when committees work and other times they don't. My gut says to find a book doctor pro and get it going. |
| scribble | Posted – 9/27/2005 4:54:44 PM | show profile | email poster I'm not sure why Tom feels he can't workshop his book in writing groups--the MediaBistro novelwriting classes are for people in exactly his shoes. However, I think Gotham Writers Workshop and Grub Street in Boston have services where an editor will read through a manuscript and give the kind of feedback Tom's seeking, for a price. |
| limericks4all | Posted – 9/27/2005 4:59:16 PM | show profile I would never put my stuff on an Internet site that was available to anyone. I am talking about writer groups you sign up for, and then exchange your stuff by email for critique. Or go to a password protected website. The best of these groups require members to submit material in advance and be voted on by other members before they can join. In my groups, we exchange a chapter a week and everyone posts their written critique. I am writing a children’s book so I found groups through a couple of websites and organizations on that genre. If you do a little Googling, I’m sure you can find others in your genre. The benefit to a good writers group is you get a diversity of feedback. If eight people tell you a chapter works and they can’t wait to see what happen next, the chapter works. No matter how good a book doctor is, he’s still only giving you one person’s opinion. <<Rx Book Doctor As a rookie novelist I don't have the confidence to put it out to online sources as you suggest. I tend to be a point a to point b personality. My dad told me if I needed in any situation go to someone who you know is a professional. Having said that how do online vetting groups work. Where do you click to start?>> |
| limericks4all | Posted – 9/27/2005 5:08:21 PM | show profile The problem with this, in my opinion, is that a novel isn't a condo. Four book doctors might give you vastly different opinions and suggestions. And no matter what, you'll still have to decide what to accept, what to ignore. Some book doctors might be good for some books and not others. You can check references and what not, but ultimately you can only judge a book doctor by whether his specific feedback to you resonates. The best plot suggestion in the world isn't going to do you any good if it doesn't make your race percolate and send you running off to the computer. That's why I go with the Stephen King approach. Ask six or eight people whose opinion you trust to read the thing and see if there is a consensus. If everyone says a character sucks, he sucks. If everyone says a character is great, he's great. If opinion is split, you have decisions to make. Ultimately, in a creative endeavor like this, you are never going to get answers, just suggesions -- some of which will work, some of which won't. <<Book Rx first or later There's a hot condo developer in San Diego named Nat Bosa, who came into town a few years ago and built maybe ten new condos in the downtown area. A reporter asked him how can he build so many high rises in such a short time when other developers can't get out of the permit process with the city. His answer was find out what it takes to build a condo. Learn all the rules--comply with all the permits and let's get going. That's what I'm interested in doing with my new mss. There's a certain time when committees work and other times they don't. My gut says to find a book doctor pro and get it going<< |
| limericks4all | Posted – 9/27/2005 5:15:51 PM | show profile I've never found much value in the criticism from people I just ask to read my book and tell me what they think. The problem is generally the feedback is never specific and detailed enough to be particularly useful. To really work, you need commitment from people to really read carefully and give detailed feedback -- which you only get if you are providing them with quid pro quo feedback. I am not dissauding anyone from using a book doctor if they want. I just find writers groups better. <<I would agree that the search for a book doctor is an appraoch to be taken much later. Me? I'd send it to Peach (who told me you were s'posed to months ago) and others who's knack for criticism is ingrained. So—other writers first, book docs next, if still needed, which I doubt. Plus, a good book agent can provide much the same ''doctoring.'' Got get 'em. Chief.>> |
| limericks4all | Posted – 9/27/2005 5:25:38 PM | show profile OK, last thing: If you do ask someone to read your ficton and give you their thoughts, make sure the person actually likes to read fiction, particularly the genre you write in. If you are writing thrillers, it may be of no value to get the opinion of someone who hasn't read a thriller in 10 years. |
| worm | Posted – 9/27/2005 5:46:38 PM | show profile Tom--I agree with you. I would not go to a writer's group unless it is populated with 1) published novelists; 2) whose books have sold well; 3) and who write in the same genre as you. That's pretty difficult. I've had a group pick apart a novel that I was later told by an editor was better before the group. Personally, I'd send it out. Do you have an agent? If not, use the ms to get one, and then let your agent's comments guide your rewrite. Or send it to an editor and wait for the response. I've gotten great feedback from editors, usually accompanied by an invitation to resend. You're obviously a talented writer--trust your talents. (Chances are you'll be asked to change a bunch of your novel by the editor anyway--they always see things with a different eye. No novel goes unedited!) |
| TomShess | Posted – 9/27/2005 5:53:08 PM | show profile Rx Book Doctor OK, we're cooking now. What we have so far are several suggestions to consider serious writers groups to get feedback as an alternative to immediately leaping into a book editor relationship. And a post from Scribble came up with two leads that I'm going to research. And, Limmericks4All says to make sure if you're showing your novel to a reader that that reader has experience in your genre. That would help, eh? But what about cost? What's a good book doc charging these days for 85k page thriller? Ballpark will do. |
| limericks4all | Posted – 9/27/2005 7:29:06 PM | show profile You aren't going to find any consistency of fees. Some will charge $100 plus $1.25-$1.50 per typed double-spaced page. Some charge a flat fee of $1000-3000. Some charge $30-90 an hour. It's all over the place. Of course, the fees can vary significantly depending on whether you want a line-by-line edit or a written critique that summarizes key thoughts and suggestions. The main thing I would suggest is to get a sample critique the docto has done for another novel that shows roughly the kind of feedback you can expect to get for the price you are quoted. <<But what about cost? What's a good book doc charging these days for 85k page thriller? Ballpark will do.>> |
| VillageGal | Posted – 9/28/2005 8:23:33 AM | show profile This seems like a discussion about the obvious. Authors use book doctors all the time, not just novices, and not just for novels. I hired one this summer to read my memoir, cost me $1000 for 200 pages. I found it real helpful. In my case much of the book had been workshopped already. I advise taking this novel as far as you can yourself (workshop the chapters) before hiring a doctor because it's expensive. Naturally, you want to get a good recommendation and feel comfortable with the doctor. Just go for it. After you spend that money, you will be really motivated to rewrite. |
| TomShess | Posted – 9/28/2005 12:17:38 PM | show profile Rx Book Doctor: Command of the Obvious Aside from a very smug first sentence—the posting by VillageGal is good stuff. Terrific in fact. It puts in order what needs to be done. This current discussion on book editors is being moderated by an admitted novice novelist and the path outlined by VillageGal is news to many of us. Be warned. We rookies possess are armed unlimited supply of obvious questions and we are not afraid to ask them. And, yes, we totally appreciate the experienced upperclassmen, who are finding the time to share wisdom with those of us still wearing our frosh beanies. |
| foodlit | Posted – 9/28/2005 1:53:55 PM | show profile I'd be very wary of a book doctor, unless that person comes highly recommended from people you trust. There are many scammers out there, and 'book doctors' are often frustrated writers themselves, so you have no guarantee that their opinions on your book will make it better. Keep in mind it is just that one person's opinion. Here's what I'd suggest. Give it to a few people whose opinions you do trust, and have them read it through and give an overall impression, and then any specifics that jump out. Revise accordingly, and then start submitting to agents. A good agent will be able to offer suggestions for revisions that will make the book more saleable. You will not necessarily get that from a book doctor. The agent will then submit to editors, who will want revisions anyway, so I would just polish it up, and send it out there, and let the professionals, the agents and editors tell you how to revise it. Save your money. If your writing and story idea is good, you'll find an agent/editor who will help you make it better. Good Luck, Pam |
| VillageGal | Posted – 9/28/2005 2:52:38 PM | show profile If you are going to do this, hire a book doctor who is or was an editor at a major house. Some editors do this freelance on the side. You are not just paying for the actual critique but for that person's knowledge of the industry and what sells. For example I loved my original title but the doctor explained why he thought it (the title) would not sell, so I changed it. Believe me, I did not pay $1000 for anyone. I found someone highly recommended who is booked weeks in advance. |
| TomShess | Posted – 9/28/2005 4:05:57 PM | show profile Name the Names So far the discussion has been short of one important aspect--names--who(m) are the top book editors around? I like Mike Sirota mikesirota.com in San Diego. Excellent web site. Background that meshes with suggestions made today. Anybody else willing to share a positive experience with a fiction book editor aka book doctor. Let's get down to it. |
| VillageGal | Posted – 9/28/2005 4:16:54 PM | show profile I was waiting for this request. I networked to get this info from writer friends I cultivated over many years. I have given this info to people I know personally but do not feel comfortable posting names on a board. I suggest writers ask among their circle of fellow writers. |
| clairezulkey | Posted – 9/28/2005 4:41:28 PM | show profile | email poster VillageGal, as always, thanks for your input. Sorry you don't care for the topic that much--we're always looking for new topics for MBToolBox.com to host here on the boards, so drop me a line if you have any ideas. Thanks! ------ Editor of MBToolBox |
| VillageGal | Posted – 9/29/2005 9:03:21 AM | show profile Claire, I think I have provded some fairly useful info here from my personal experience , ( prices, when & how to find a doctor, etc) so I don't understand your comment about my not liking this topic. Excuse me, if I did not reply in the exact manner you guys had in mind when you dreamed up this topic. If the three or so doctors that I know don't advertise - and only work by personal referral- I feel it would be wrong to post their names. You gotta network for the great ones. |
| clairezulkey | Posted – 9/29/2005 9:14:14 AM | show profile | email poster Sorry VillageGal--I was responding to an earlier comment of yours: ''This seems like a discussion about the obvious.'' Perhaps I misunderstood. Good morning! ------ Editor of MBToolBox |
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