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Topic: When is it Theft?
| Author | Message |
| clairezulkey | Posted – 7/17/2006 4:24:23 PM | show profile | email poster A common complaint from new freelancers is that the editors they've pitched to 'stole' their story ideas. Most of the time, it's just a coincidence. But sometimes, it DOES happen. How can a writer tell when their story has been stolen and what can you do about it? ------ Editor of MBToolBox |
| belinda | Posted – 7/17/2006 4:50:12 PM | show profile Ideas can't be copyrighted. (This should be written a hundred times with indelible marker on every writer's brain.) With this being the case, should you satisfy the urge to chew out the editor? Professionalism and the fact that publishing's a small world suggest letting go and moving on. |
| clairezulkey | Posted – 7/17/2006 5:30:43 PM | show profile | email poster So you would recommend doing nothing then if a detailed story idea mysteriously appeared in a magazine that a writer had pitched to? Not even saying something like "Great minds think alike!"? ------ Editor of MBToolBox |
| caitlinkelly | Posted – 7/17/2006 5:48:55 PM | show profile Claire, do you think veterans have the same complaint, or as often, as new freelancers? Is it possible that new(er) freelancers aren't pitching (as) strategically or pitching ideas so general/popular or generic they're hardly unique? I believe it happened to me in one specific instance, with a major consumer book, but I didn't say or do anything about it -- because burning bridges while you're trying to build them sends a mixed message. It was about as blatant as these things can get, but the world is small, life's too short and what exactly will you accomplish by raising the issue with that editor or magazine? I never pitched that place again. The only way I think you can avoid "theft" is to nail down a story by choosing an angle, sources and/or timeframe that make it much more likely you'll get the assignment. It's still no guarantee. If your pitch is too generic, anyone else can arguably write it. If it's specific to your area of the country and/or expertise, why would an ethical editor (given you have the clips to get the gig), give it to someone who can't do it nearly as well? I think theft happens but it's virtually impossible to prove unless you've got some sympathetic mole at that publication to share the smoking-gun emails or notes to prove it...and who's going to commit career suicide for some random freelancer? I also think veterans network so effectively, on members-only BBs like ASJA or FLX where we'll name names when things get ugly, that it doesn't happen to them. Editors playing games know they can find themselves shut out by veterans. I also think veterans learn how to pitch without giving away the store, and by doing some re-con on the editors and magazines they approach on their track record in this regard. |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 7/17/2006 6:53:09 PM | show profile It's virtually impossible to tell if a story idea has been stolen, rather than just being a coincidence, even if the piece uses the same sources you proposed. Legally, there probably isn't any recourse since ideas can't be copyrighted. If you somehow have ironclad proof the idea was stolen (which is unlikely), you can contact the editor's boss or report him to writer's groups. This might give you some personal satisfaction or it might not, but I wouldn't expect anything else to come from it. The boss will probably side with his employee and ignore you. Personally, I would probably just move on and not pitch the editor again, but otherwise just shrug it off. |
| glurf | Posted – 7/18/2006 8:51:29 AM | show profile An editor's two cents: When writers pitch me ideas we already have on the books or another writer has pitched, I make sure I tell them just so they don't think I stole their idea. I would not be upset if a writer "confronted me" on this, as long as they did it in a professional way. I prefer the chance to clear up a misunderstanding to simply severing a good working relationship. |
| mkelly | Posted – 7/18/2006 9:57:20 AM | show profile I agree with Glurf's points 100 percent. And as a former freelancer (now editor), let me offer this advice: When I pitched an idea, I'd give just enough detail to show the editor I have the concept well-formulated in my brain and have access to useful data or sources to make the article happen-- in other words, tease them that 'here's this great idea, and I've already got the guts of it ready to go.' If they wrote back and expressed interest, I'd quickly move the conversation to payment, deadline, etc., to establish the premise that this would be an assignment, not a conversation to show them my cards. Once an assignment was in hand, I'd happily tell them all about the details. No editor ever really pushed me on this, and as an editor now I'd have no problem with a writer doing the same to me. |
| clairezulkey | Posted – 7/18/2006 1:01:14 PM | show profile | email poster Thank you Glurf, and mKelly. I figure there must be mature ways to bring it up with editors that at worst can't hurt a writer's case and at best an editor might think, "hey, this writer is on track with what we want." ------ Editor of MBToolBox |
| TMJ | Posted – 7/18/2006 4:29:14 PM | show profile tricky Thanks to all the vets for weighing in on this. I think Caitlin must be right in saying less experienced writers simply give too much away sometimes in their zeal (desperation?) to land assignments. This happened to me, in my enthusiasm at getting an assignment from a big pub and wanting more. I was very depressed when I saw what happened (oh, about three and a half months after my pitch), but I didn't say anything out of fear of alienating the editor. I later heard this person was notorious for poaching, especially when s/he was too busy to think up ideas on their own, and the mag was pinched for cash and tightening up on using freelancers. So it goes. People get so vitriolic on this issue, screaming about how no one has original ideas, you can't copyright them, etc. I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle of the story. It happens, probably often, but there are lots of overlaping pitches as well. |
| belinda | Posted – 7/18/2006 9:26:27 PM | show profile Vitriolic? It's not vitriolic to say that ideas can't be copyrighted. Copyright law does not cover ideas -- check it out yourself at www.copyright.gov. |
| clairezulkey | Posted – 7/19/2006 9:20:04 AM | show profile | email poster Right, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all freelancers should just sit back if they have a good case that one of their ideas has been lifted, right? Not saying they need to sue or get nasty of course. ------ Editor of MBToolBox |
| belinda | Posted – 7/19/2006 9:36:12 AM | show profile Taking it up with the editor would gain what, exactly? Best route to personal satisfaction, revenge or what have you: Tweak your idea and sell it elsewhere. It leaves all bridges intact, avoids the "whiner" label, avoids the "naive" label, avoids the "paranoid" label, etc. |
| clairezulkey | Posted – 7/19/2006 9:39:21 AM | show profile | email poster Gotcha, Belinda. Curious to hear from any writers out there who did suspect 'theft' and mentioned it to their editors? What happened? ------ Editor of MBToolBox |
| crosseyed and painless | Posted – 7/19/2006 11:12:19 AM | show profile Hi, It may have been my post a month or two ago that got this ball rolling. For the record, I am an experienced journalist, although experienced within a niche group of pubs, so I'm looking to expand into more general interest pubs. I came across a great FOB opportunity that was a perfect fit for a publication, so I wrote it up and submitted it in hopes of landing the clip. The editor got back to me, even asked me some fact checking questions, which I gladly answered. Editor then turned around and gave me the "We don't use freelancers in this section" speech and but offered to assign me something else in the near future - which never happened. I literally saw a near exact replica of my piece, credited to a freelancer, a month or two later in print. I oh-so diplomatically confronted said editor, but to no avail. I feel that this editor a) shouldn't have asked me to fact check if he knew that he wasn't going to give me the piece and b) shouldn't have led me to believe he was going to assign me something in the future when he clearly had no intention of doing so. It was a situation where I couldn't exactly keep the key info to myself -- it was a brief FOB piece that took less time to write then to query about. I took a chance, it didn't work out, and I've since moved on to (much) greener pastures. What else can you do... Hope this helps others out there in the same boat. |
| clairezulkey | Posted – 7/19/2006 11:41:48 AM | show profile | email poster Thanks, crosseyed. Are you able to give us any info on the pub (or what kind it was?) That's good to know, though, for others for future reference. Glad that you've moved on, too! ------ Editor of MBToolBox |
| gagner25 | Posted – 7/28/2006 9:10:16 PM | show profile Claire et al, Does this sort of thing happen often? I pitched an idea to a magazine a few months ago, and recently they asked me for photos that would go along with the article. I sent them the photos, but never heard back. My idea was something that could be a common one, but I had never seen it done in this particular magazine. Well, just now I found an article on the magazine's web site that is far too close to what I pitched to really be a coincidence. But how can I tell? Maybe this person just really had the same idea and the editors decided to go with her instead (I've never written for this publication before)? It was an artsy do-it-yourself piece, and mine would have been far more complicated and artistic. I really love this magazine, so I don't want to believe they engage in that kind of thing, but I guess it's always possible. I also had an essay accepted by one editor there but two months later, found out it was rejected by the editor in charge of the essay section. I suppose some of these things are my fault -- I should have just emailed the section editor to begin with, but I didn't want to step on any toes. I really want to write for this magazine, but now I'm afraid to submit or pitch anything to them! What a bummer. |
| gagner25 | Posted – 7/28/2006 9:13:02 PM | show profile Claire et al, Does this sort of thing happen often? I pitched an idea to a magazine a few months ago, and recently they asked me for photos that would go along with the article. I sent them the photos, but never heard back. My idea was something that could be a common one, but I had never seen it done in this particular magazine. Well, just now I found an article on the magazine's web site that is far too close to what I pitched to really be a coincidence. But how can I tell? Maybe this person just really had the same idea and the editors decided to go with her instead (I've never written for this publication before)? It was an artsy do-it-yourself piece, and mine would have been far more complicated and artistic. I really love this magazine, so I don't want to believe they engage in that kind of thing, but I guess it's always possible. I also had an essay accepted by one editor there but two months later, found out it was rejected by the editor in charge of the essay section. I suppose some of these things are my fault -- I should have just emailed the section editor to begin with, but I didn't want to step on any toes. I really want to write for this magazine, but now I'm afraid to submit or pitch anything to them! What a bummer. |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 7/29/2006 10:59:35 AM | show profile Wait, did you write the article, send it in, and then they asked for photos -- and never responded? Or did they ask for photos before you wrote the piece? The essays a different matter. It didn't sound like the editor accepted it (or you would have a contract). It sounds like he said he liked it but needed to send it around and another editor didn't go for it. --Claire et al, Does this sort of thing happen often? I pitched an idea to a magazine a few months ago, and recently they asked me for photos that would go along with the article. I sent them the photos, but never heard back. My idea was something that could be a common one, but I had never seen it done in this particular magazine. Well, just now I found an article on the magazine's web site that is far too close to what I pitched to really be a coincidence. But how can I tell? Maybe this person just really had the same idea and the editors decided to go with her instead (I've never written for this publication before)? It was an artsy do-it-yourself piece, and mine would have been far more complicated and artistic. I really love this magazine, so I don't want to believe they engage in that kind of thing, but I guess it's always possible. I also had an essay accepted by one editor there but two months later, found out it was rejected by the editor in charge of the essay section. I suppose some of these things are my fault -- I should have just emailed the section editor to begin with, but I didn't want to step on any toes. I really want to write for this magazine, but now I'm afraid to submit or pitch anything to them! What a bummer... |
| gagner25 | Posted – 7/29/2006 4:00:47 PM | show profile Yeah, you're right, dribbledrive. They asked for photos before not responding, but I figured they would respond eventually. It's possible that they liked the idea but didn't like my photos, or thought my photos weren't right for the magazine (like I said, they were more artistic than what was finally used, and probably too complicated for a quick guide). And you are right about the essay, too. I guess I just got my hopes up in both cases and was disappointed that neither worked out. But it's probably not right to get your hopes up, just because you get asked for photos and just because one editor likes something. The process takes longer than that. |
| troutmask | Posted – 8/9/2006 12:50:08 PM | show profile theft Coming late to this, with perspective of long time editor and freelancer: *idea theft happens frequently, we just don't want to admit it or confront it. certain mags depend on it. certain editors rely on it to jumpstart their careers and are serial offenders. those of us who are longtimers keep a list... for instance, in the 80s only a fool pitched the Intelligencer section at New York. ditto for Departures. (having had a mole in both places, we know of what we speak.) The New York Times Magazine still has a rep for grazing on the work of those beneath their lofty standards. *we don't confront it because it's asking for big trouble. everybody turns on you. *what complicates everything is that the least professional or experienced freelancers assume every idea they have is original--which happens with budding screenwriters too. this ultimately helps out the idea thieves because, let's face it, nobody wants to be lumped with the crackpots. *best way to deal with it...some good ideas in this forum about withholding information, etc. but it is sort of hard when you're starting out and you need to make an impression. find a sympathetic and trustworthy assistant or associate and work your way up the food chain, then take care to be trustworthy yourself. |
| cornfrost | Posted – 8/9/2006 2:41:03 PM | show profile Nobody has mentioned "theft" after the fact. But maybe that's a different animal. I wrote a story for a national newspaper on a really unique topic. Within weeks, the same story appeared in the WSJ and in Time magazine. I know they ripped off my idea because I later spoke to a guy I'd quoted, who said that he was immediately contacted by said publications, which asked him to provide others who could address the topic, but not anyone who had already been quoted by me. |
| mhmllr | Posted – 8/9/2006 2:50:46 PM | show profile | email poster No shop is immune From 1977 to 2003 I contributed more than 40 pieces -- articles, chapters and two books -- to the National Geographic Society's magazine and book divisions. In the 1990s I lobbied for several years for a National Geographic magazine assignment to Corsica, submitting a multi-page proposal including supporting background, the product of several months' applied research. I received no response. After about a year. I queried again, and was told that I was not one of the magazine's "vetted" writers, so could not be considered for an assignment. (I had previously published two articles in National Geographic.) In hope of being approved, I submitted copies of some of my NGS publications. More months passed without a response. I queried again, only to receive my samples back with a Post-It Note attached from one editor to another disparaging my writing. (No apology issued after my complaint, just a acknowledgment that, my gracious goodness, these things happen, and, oh my, aren't they embarrassing, though.) Shortly afterward, I learned the magazine had assigned a Corsica feature to a writer. There is no way I could determine if my years of proposing this subject turned their attention to Corsica. I went on to write a travel-oriented profile of the French island for another NGS magazine, where the editors were always gracious in their dealings with me. The prior experience, however, unique in my years as a freelancer, left me with the impression that no shop is immune to slipshod practices and editorial arrogance. Some editors seem not to have a clue about common courtesy, and abuse the arms-length relationship they have with most contributors and would-be contributors by hiding behind unanswerred phones and e-mail messages. Editors should respect and value the unpaid effort freelancers invest in proposals -- we are effectively subsidizing their editorial operations, after all -- and observe the Golden Rule. |
| fmr exec | Posted – 8/9/2006 8:47:08 PM | show profile | email poster here's what I would do in this situation I've spent the last 20 years roughly split between freelancing and being a staff editor. As a staffer I never knowingly copped anybody's idea and gave it to someone else, but I bet I did it unknowingly a few times. (I have had friends whom this happened to.) It's easy for an idea to become detached from its originator, especially in staff pitch sessions. Had some freelancer come to me and said, hey, you filched my idea -- and could point to the email that proved it (and it really was an original idea) -- I would have apologized profusely and given him or her another assignment as recompense. That's what I would expect as a freelancer as well. If some editor filched my idea, I would politely confront him or her and ask for another assignment. If I got the cold shoulder, I'd go over his or her head and make the same request. I don't think this is being a 'whiner' or 'paranoid.' And I don't think you should be afraid of burning bridges -- if they stole your idea they will probably screw you in other ways as well. Best not to write for them. But I believe most editors are ethical beasts who try to do the right thing, provided time (and their bosses) will let them. Now I'd like to suggest another topic: what to do when you get an assignment from a magazine that asks for an endless number of rewrites, then publishes a story much longer than you contracted to write but refuses to pay you for the extra wordage? I just went through that with a 'popular' tech magazine that will go nameless. Anybody else out there have this experience? if so, what did you do? |
| Lotus665 | Posted – 8/9/2006 9:54:17 PM | show profile fmr exec, you really have a case here. I'd fire off a polite but very firm letter requesting further payment at the same word rate. "You ran my article at 1500 words when we'd originally contracted for 750; I did additional reporting and writing at your request and should be compensated for the additional published words, in the name of fairness and professionalism." CC to the person's higher up. If you burn the bridge, so what, they're exploitative. Just see you get paid for the extra. |
| salme3 | Posted – 8/14/2006 6:10:42 PM | show profile Intellectual Property It's true that an idea in the abstract can be copyrighted. However, it's also true that an idea, once WRITTEN DOWN is in fact copyright-protected under US law. Now, plagiarism is legally defined as reusing a string of six or more words in a row (lifted from another source), or AN ORIGINAL IDEA substantially lifted from a source, and not acknowledging that source. So, if you write a query letter outlining your idea in detail, then a few months later see it substantially reproduced in the magazine (or other media) to which you sent the idea, you might have a viable gripe IF the finished product substantially resembles your proposal. On a personal note, I once sent a two-page query to Cat Fancy magazine (about 6 years ago), detail an in-depth story I'd planned about feral cats. I sent the letter in February. Imagine my anger when the June (or was it July?) issue had a cover-story about how to tame feral cats!!! Now, they had run stories about ferals before, but I'd done my research. There were none that I could find specifically about TAMING feral KITTENS. Someone pointed out that the lead time-- February to June -- was not long enough for them to steal my idea and turn it around. I disagree. Strongly. I wrote to them, and received no reply. So yes, I believe it does happen. But when it does, it's awfully hard to prove. I've just crossed them off my list of queries, and know they'll never, ever, get any of my story ideas -- or cash for their mags -- again. Ultimately, all you can do is write to them, warn others, and vote with your money or talent. Take it to another outlet. Good luck. Signed -- a freelancer |
