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Topic: Their highest number is my lowest
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| moon | Posted – 8/1/2006 12:53:51 PM | show profile Here we go again with the dreaded salary requirement issue...but with a tiny twist. Prospective employer has put the ball in my court regarding an interview. If I'm cool with the salary range, then all's a go. Here's the thing. The highest end of their salary range is my absolutely lowest acceptable salary. So even if I landed the position, I would be expecting them to top out on their salary offer. My previous experience has been that unless, there's a set salary (is it really "set" ever?!) no employer wants to max out their range. There's only been one time before that I've negotiated to get max salary and that was a session filled with phone calls, Internet research, and teeth pulling! So what I'm saying is, should I go in expecting that this employer will want to hit middle ground with the salary range or should I just go in dawning my armor to get the max (provided I even get that far in the interviewing process?) Would appreciate your helpful feedback... |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 8/1/2006 1:01:22 PM | show profile Well, if you have a line in the sand, absolute lowest salary, there wouldn't seem to be an issue. When it reaches the point of salary negotiations, you tell them what you want and then turn down the job if you can't get it. If he won't go higher, you shurg and say, "Sorry, but this amount is really my absolute lowest I can work for. And if you can't meet that I'll to turn down the job." The only issue, really, is if you think you'll cave and accept lower than your "absolute lowest." --Here we go again with the dreaded salary requirement issue...but with a tiny twist. Prospective employer has put the ball in my court regarding an interview. If I'm cool with the salary range, then all's a go. Here's the thing. The highest end of their salary range is my absolutely lowest acceptable salary. So even if I landed the position, I would be expecting them to top out on their salary offer. My previous experience has been that unless, there's a set salary (is it really "set" ever?!) no employer wants to max out their range. There's only been one time before that I've negotiated to get max salary and that was a session filled with phone calls, Internet research, and teeth pulling! So what I'm saying is, should I go in expecting that this employer will want to hit middle ground with the salary range or should I just go in dawning my armor to get the max (provided I even get that far in the interviewing process?) Would appreciate your helpful feedback...-- |
| moon | Posted – 8/1/2006 1:20:51 PM | show profile yep... ...that's what it boils down to, doesn't it? Thanks, dribble, you're on point. Call me crazy but I'd hate to get to the place where I have the job but am being offered below max. Now, they put that little tag line next to the salary range saying, "commensurate with experience," so technically I should get max because I'm honestly overqualified for the position. I'm not going to get all worked up over a job that I haven't even interviewed for yet but the prospect of hearing, "The good news is, you got the job! The bad news is that the highest we can go is mid-range!" I'd have to decline but the silly thing is that while I don't want to work and starve, I'd be faced with not working and starving. Boy, what fortitude!!! |
| noname1234 | Posted – 8/1/2006 1:28:05 PM | show profile I wouldn't worrry that the highest they can go is mid-range. I don't think an employer would throw out any figure to you if it wasn't prepared to go there. It wouldn't make sense for them to do that strategically. Assume they are prepared to pay any figure they've told you, including the highest. I would actually pitch even higher than the highest figure they've said and see how they respond. Often there's an even higher "real" figure that they don't divulge off the bat. Good luck! |
| moon | Posted – 8/1/2006 1:52:51 PM | show profile but see, noname... ...what was implied was that if I expect any salary above their range, don't even come in for the interview. I think that's fair. But I hear what you're saying about those "real figures". It's just that I do believe that this particular company has a hidden number beyond their max. One thing I'd like to add is that this range is a part of the job announcement itself, and not some arbitrary number that they've thrown my way. I look at it as reverse "salary requirements". Instead of said employer requesting salary requirements and thereafter, throwing out all the resumes with requirements higher than their target payout, this company has put their range out in the open and is leaving it up to the applicant to decide if their range is acceptable or in line with the applicant's own salary requirements. Even though I prefer this method, I still say that ranges are tricky. Because, let's say you've freelanced awhile and your income varies greatly. And your last staff position falls within the range they're offering but does not exceed it. Said employer could lowball you by saying that what they're offering is higher that your last "staff salary" even though time has passed and you require a higher salary to maintain your current life. That's been my experience with employers is that they try their hardest not to max out the range, even if it's by 1 or 2 measly Ks. That extra money just goes back in the company "budget"! |
| moon | Posted – 8/1/2006 1:56:26 PM | show profile oops... ...I meant to write that, "I do NOT believe that this particular company has a hidden number beyond their max." The first erroneous sentence would certainly clear up my dilemma, somewhat! :-) |
| noname1234 | Posted – 8/1/2006 2:01:38 PM | show profile I think that if they give a range of $X-Y, and you'd take it for $Y (even if it's your rock bottom), then you're in the range and should go for it. In other words, take their statement at face value--after all, you're just thinking about going in for an interview, right? You can worry about this all more when you get the offer! |
| moon | Posted – 8/1/2006 2:12:13 PM | show profile noname... ...you are a diplomat and a scholar. (giggle) Yes, I have just confirmed the interview and will take the process as it comes. Cheers! NOTE TO MB: This post isn't closed yet...I still welcome your feedback! |
| caitlinkelly | Posted – 8/1/2006 2:27:36 PM | show profile If an offer is made and the straight salary too low, you can ask about any other forms of compensation, which some companies offer, whether more vacation time, tuition reimbursement, stock options, flexible hours, etc. Each company calculates your "value" to them differently, albeit within some predictable ranges. People bring different skill sets and some never even try to negotiate an offer, so what "everyone else" has gotten may mean that none tried for more. The business book "Women Don't Ask" by Laschever is instructive on this point. |
| moon | Posted – 8/1/2006 2:48:45 PM | show profile Hey Caitlin! I'm not a newbie, although I've changed my screenname. I must say Caitlin, that you have been an MB mainstay who has always provided the most insightful and unselfish feedback. It's good to see that you are still helping to hold MB to a higher standard! Now about the salary thing. Trust me when I tell you that anything lower than the max is not acceptable even with added perks. What I haven't shared in this post so far is that I recently lowered my salary requirements by 5K. Meaning that a few months ago, I wouldn't have even considered this company or another company that I recently interviewed for. Caitlin, I'm in NYC and I believe that you are too. So you KNOW about the whole "cost of living vs. salary" fix that many of us creative types fall into here in the city. These salaries of which I speak are already a good 20-30K below what those statistics state as being a livable salary in NYC. The only reason that I've been able to survive this long is that I do not have children, I live in the outer boroughs, and I've learned to live waaaay beneath my means. Caitlin, don't turn me into a working pauper...Please!!! ;-) |
| chucho | Posted – 8/1/2006 3:08:01 PM | show profile My advice is follow Caitlin's advice, plus determine how badly you need the job and use that as a factor in determining how hard to push for the top-end of the range. You can always walk away. One of the fundamental rules of bartering is to convincingly conceal the need to aquire the objective (or actually have no need for the job). A good way to do this is to stand firm on your salary requirement. On the other hand, in a buyer's maket like NYC (assuming that's where you are) you can pretty much count on the fact that there's probably a dozen other candidates as qualified as you are vying for the same job, and some of them are probably willing to work for less. |
| caitlinkelly | Posted – 8/1/2006 5:49:45 PM | show profile Hey, moon, I hear you. I've made the same choices. But then what's so appealing about a job that's lowballing you from the start, if that's the case? A fabulous title or chance to learn new skills? Can you leverage it into the next job that will pay you what you want? I don't think the "oh, I'll freelance the difference" is a great choice, although many people do this. I think chucho is right that someone will always do it for less, but I don't think that's a great argument for eating ramen for the rest of your life either. If the difference between your goal and theirs is $1,000, after NYC's crummy taxes, why sweat it? If that spread is $5-10k+, that's something else. I'd never urge anyone to be(come) or remain a pauper! (Read Laschever, I repeat.) |
| overthehillwriter | Posted – 8/1/2006 6:11:49 PM | show profile | email poster One thing to watch out for is that even when you are able to negotiate to your bottom dollar (and they grudgingly settle at their top limit) you may have other dilemmas: 1) Forget raises -- some employers in this situation will figure they're giving your future raises all at once when you come on, so don't expect any more EVER 2) Entitlement -- some employers will get a grudge on and expect over and above commitment or justify heaping work on in an unreasonable fashion because you're making "so much." I had a publisher who figured since he paid me so much, I could do the work of 2 people. When I left, he replaced me with three (lower paid) people. 3) Your own feelings -- since you came on at the very lowest end of your range, you may end up resenting the situation -- while they resent it for the opposite reason. All that said, it's entirely possible that there's another hidden figure that they won't advertise and might not tell you but which they'd be willing to pay should they land a Hemingway. In this case, if you impress them enough in the interview process as being added value and fabulous, they may confer in secret and come in with a higher figure. This has happened to me -- and I got it by being impressed with their organization and very interested in the job but being unable to work for their advertised top figure. I wasn't just being coy or hard to get -- I truly felt that way. It's a gamble because anyone can call your bluff. If you need the work, take it on their highest terms if offered, but it might not be a good expectation fit for the long term. |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 8/1/2006 6:11:51 PM | show profile My philosophy is that you might as well apply for any job that strikes your fancy, and go on any interview. In reality, even if you're an active job seeker, it won't be that many interviews or that much time and the experience is good. And then, if they offer you the job, you negotiate salary. Can you ask for more than their stated salary range? Sure. It's a free country. I wouldn't make a habit of this, but there's no law against it. But I don't see a point in getting worked up at the answering an ad stage. --yep... ...that's what it boils down to, doesn't it? Thanks, dribble, you're on point. Call me crazy but I'd hate to get to the place where I have the job but am being offered below max. Now, they put that little tag line next to the salary range saying, "commensurate with experience," so technically I should get max because I'm honestly overqualified for the position.-- |
| Cyrus | Posted – 8/2/2006 2:19:46 PM | show profile I'd go in determined to get the best you can. To illustrate, I got to NYC 10 years ago by taking a job with CNN that would include a move. When I was first offered the job, it came with a salary that was only $6K a year more than I was making in Nashville, where I lived at the time. Obviously, I knew there was no way the math would work on that, so I pressed for more money. Over the course of days, they moved up in small increments, to the point that I finally made $8K more in progress. Long story short, during the time I was in Atlanta waiting for facilities to be built out in NYC, my unit was taken over by NY and we were all bumped up even more to a level that was decent. I understand where you're coming from in that you're worried about screwing up an opportunity. But let me tell you this: even if it's a job you really like when you start, if you're constantly scraping by financially, you may very well grow to soon hate it. That would obviously make the whole experience much less rewarding. Something to ponder... ------ Cyrus Afzali Astoria Communications www.astoriacomm.com |
| moon | Posted – 8/2/2006 3:11:49 PM | show profile Yes, Cyrus... ...I believe you've tapped into my sentiments best. True, as some posters have pointed out, that I shouldn't get too worked up over this in that I am only entering the initial interview stage; but it's still in the back of my mind. And yes, raises are also something else to ponder. Will getting max up front affect future raises?...something else to ponder. A previous poster also gave me food for thought in pointing this out. This company is not the powerhouse that CNN is...it's a small operation. And you know what, I'm glad that I am really thinking this through at this time. As hard as jobs are to come by now, you want to know that you're comfortable with your decision for the next few years to come (if the job will offer that much security). Thanks again guys for providing different angles for me to view this situation. I'm all the more better for it. In the event that this process works in my favor and I do land this position, these are very real issues that I will have to turn over in my mind before accepting any salary offer that they put out there. I'm a firm believer that foresight with a tender hide is much better than hindsight with a sore ass! HA! |
