| Back to Home > Bulletin Board > Current Events > Topic: Is all customer service outsourced to India??!!! |
Topic: Is all customer service outsourced to India??!!!
| Author | Message |
| Righter | Posted – 4/23/2007 11:01:38 PM | show profile Mialbag, I think one of the biggest problems that we encounter here in the U.S. in regards to the immigration issue is a severe lack of compassion for people in other countries. Half the people in the U.S. have never even left the country, and have no clue as to how lucky they really are to have been born here, and they will never understand what it is to live in a country that is "third world." I am a naturalized citizen, and I've grown up here and every time I visit my birthplace it breaks my heart. Almost on every street you'll see four-year old children risking their lives in traffic that speeds by just to make a couple of dollars (not U.S. ones, mind you, but ones that are worth much less when you convert them). If not, you'll see those children asking to polish your shoes along downtown, or simply tugging at your sleeve. People that have college educations can't find a job and have to go to another country to do the jobs that no one legal citizen would want to do. Never mind the threat of kidnappings, terrorism, and the large gap between the classes that leaves most way beyond the poverty line. I may not be a huge fan of our current administration, but at least as a member of the media and of the press none of us have ever feared for our lives at the thought of speaking out against it. Now try to imagine how bad things would REALLY have to get here for you to decide that you have to leave the one place you call home, your family and friends, to live in a country in which you know no one and not a word of their language. That's how bad it is for many people that come here looking for a better life. I can assure you that it's not at all "Easy" as you implied when you said it was an easy way out. It's simply the only option left for them. |
| Righter | Posted – 4/23/2007 11:03:42 PM | show profile I meant to say "as a member of the media and as a citizen," not of the press. got so wrapped up I typed too quickly, I guess. |
| A~ | Posted – 4/24/2007 1:25:04 PM | show profile It thrills me to see people like mailbag pissed off at "those Mexicans". I hope they overrun your neighborhood with taco stalls and paleta carts. Los Angeles, if you haven't noticed, is a Spanish name. That's because, technically speaking, Mexicans occupied that land before the whiteys (after the Europeans slaughtered Native Ameircans and stole the whole fucking country from them in the first place -- at least most Mexicans are meztizo, which means they have Injun blood in their veins.) I'm sorry your little Los Angeles-from-the-1960s fatasy (white men with pipes and cartigans and ladies with big hair and horn-rimmed glasses sitting around pools drinking margaritas) is over, but grow up. So, no, you have no right to say who does what in this regard. If you have a problem with immigration then do something and advocate for elevating wages in Mexico instead of politically supporting American policies that aim to not only keep wages down in Mexico, but lower then in the US, too, to compete with it. (Actually, Mexico and the US are competing with Asia, but that's another story.) Trust me: Mexican would stay in Mexico if they could feed their families. (It's a more beautiful country, to begin with.) There have always been Mexicans in LA and in much of the Southwest and Texas. Deal with it, or move to some soulless suburban tract neighborhood in redneck Central California and do your best to make Mexicans uncomfortable. Whatever. I'm just happy to see people like you so consternated. Also keep in mind that Rockefeller and many other North Americans made huge fortunes in Mexico (it's touched upon at the beginning of the wonderful movie "Treasure of the Sierra Madre") and today major US companies both sell and manufacture in Mexico. Like it or not, Mexico is and always has been a close neighbor of the USA. It also happens to be a wonderful country. (And yeah, I love it so much I've spent much of my life there.) I hope the Mexicans overrun your American uptopia. |
| mailbag | Posted – 4/24/2007 3:28:51 PM | show profile | email poster Desu, Nati23vb, A- "Desu...If you're white, that's exactly what your ancestors did at some point from the early 17th century on instead of making Europe a better place. And I think it would be difficult to claim that they did not "change" the Indian "way of life to suit their needs." Certainly seemed like "the way to go" then, didn't it?" Ancestors have nothing to do with this - they are dead, they made mistakes. I chose not to carry on the practice. I grew up in LA, and remember the Watts riots. Put into perspective... what was going on down south wasn't important to Angelenos until Watts. Just a matter of distance, which has since been bridged with broadcast tele and now the 'Net. Back then, what happened in one's own woods mattered most. Anyway, that problem has never been solved. In the 70s, and moreso in the 80s, the influx of illegal aliens from Mexico and points south, created a new problem on top of the refugees from Vietnam, and those from Korea who moved in. Race relations exploded of course once again in the early 90s. Problem not solved. As much as pro-immigrants do not like to discuss this...take a look at LA area's police blotter. (LA proper, Orange, Riverside, San Berdoo, Ventura, San Diego counties.) Problem not solved... and at the expense of those paying taxes. "Nati23vb ..I think one of the biggest problems that we encounter here in the U.S. in regards to the immigration issue is a severe lack of compassion for people in other countries..." I agree, and will add too that another problem is perspective. Due to our cultural ways, we have (on average although I'm not in this thought) the idea that everyone must be like us or they are somehow a third-world nation or in some need of financial assitance. Throwing money at these countries doesn't solve the problem. Using Africa as an example, the greatest issue of strife comes back to our own consumer demand (and to some extent Europe's) for computer minerals and oil etc. What needs to be said though is yes, people can live on 50-cents a day 'there.' So if they earn $1.20 per day, they are living quite well. In this country one needs $70 a day to survive. There is simply no comparison based on quality of life as perceived by average here. If this nation had not hijacked the United Nations I think there would be more attention to countries trying to pull themselves up... That process needs to be embraced, not politicized as this country (the USA) likes to do for hoarding natural resources. "Nati23vb...I can assure you that it's not at all "Easy" as you implied when you said it was an easy way out. It's simply the only option left for them." In the case of Mexico (as I have in the past employed illegals,) know first hand of what I speak. Back in '84 I had a crew lead whom I adored... he was about 70, had a gold AMEX card. Lovely house with servants in Acapulco, and 12 children. His $5 an hour job afforded him that luxury since he sent the cash home each week. I'm not an evil guy... he took advantage of the system and my hat off to him for doing it. He and I joked about this all the time. He knew what he was doing. I did not approve of the process. Had nothing to do with him personally. "A~ -- So, no, you have no right to say who does what in this regard." A, you say that - and then you advise to advocate change in Mexico... that is the same slippery slope I addressed above. Can't have it both ways. It is not my place to tell other countries what to do. I do not support anything the USA does to influence other nations. We must be hands off. "A-I'm just happy to see people like you so consternated..." Well A, I ain't going away. And the majority of this nation agrees... Somehow that slips past those advocating for opening the flood gates. "A-Also keep in mind that Rockefeller and many other North Americans made huge fortunes in Mexico (it's touched upon at the beginning of the wonderful movie "Treasure of the Sierra Madre") and today major US companies both sell and manufacture in Mexico. Like it or not, Mexico is and always has been a close neighbor of the USA." This is a different issue. Mexico permits this, that is up to them to fix. |
| Desu | Posted – 4/24/2007 4:19:43 PM | show profile So... the Europeans never should have left Europe, and the U.S. never should have been founded? You object to the practice of population migration in general? Should anyone have left East Africa two million years ago? Might make an interesting opinion piece, or even a book. |
| mailbag | Posted – 4/24/2007 6:43:09 PM | show profile | email poster "Desu ...You object to the practice of population migration in general? Should anyone have left East Africa two million years ago? Might make an interesting opinion piece, or even a book." I only object to the views that this is the land of milk and honey and that anyone can arrive here without following the same rules I do. I know this sound wicked to some folks here - that is fine. There must be a process in place that a majority agree to "today." When the process is broken, it must be fixed. Neither of these work imo right now. If the majority wants a wall built around the 50 states - I totally support that cause. I do ask you all though -- why does the majority right now want immigrants out? What have immigrants of 2000s done to deserve a bad rap? Reputation from the past 20 years? Or perception that they are getting a free ride when the rest of us have to bust our balls just to stay head? Los Angeles today has more homeless than the entire country of France. Do any of you think there is something odd about that? I cannot recall how many of those are listed as illegal aliens, but if memory serves it is very small. We know why -- they are well connected within their own group. We however have no head count of homeless. In short, we can't even fix this problem... that is we don't know how to 'feed our own.' I bring this up because our people do fall off... and there are no nets. Doesn't even include those with a roof who are still starving since SS payments don't cut it with our true 10%+ inflation. As I've stated in another thread... my views changed completely when I was laid off. And I looked at "falling off" for the first time. My sympathies go out to homeless men in particular. They are no different than I am at the core. In 2004, I could not get a dishwashing job, I could not get a bed-changer job at the Hilton, and I could not do anything behind the scenes for $5 an hour without speaking Spanish. I am a legal citizen. I've reluctantly paid income taxes since 1977. Something was very wrong with requiring me to speak Spanish in NY. You ask other men in their 40s/50s who have at midlife suffered major career setbacks in our wonderful country. I'm not talking about a guy drifting into consulting at twice his salary. Talking about guys who dedicated themselves to the corporation, to a wife, perhaps kids, and counted upon some security after 50. Given the ax, so their job goes to India - just like mine. Outsourcing. Layoff. Loss of jobs, save for 20-something upstarts. I hear from these men (and some women) after they read my stories. They comp me on the ability to put it into perspective and say what they couldn't in writing. I'm speaking for a silent group who know we deserve better in this nation. They know there is no room, so why open the doors for more until we fix what is broken? |
| Desu | Posted – 4/24/2007 8:27:47 PM | show profile I'm not objecting to your specific characterizations of the job market, or really anything else you're saying here (except perhaps for your characterization of people who agree with you on this as a "silent" group). What I am objecting to is what I see as a double standard that seems to have shifted in the space of 24 hours. You say, "I only object to the views that this is the land of milk and honey and that anyone can arrive here without following the same rules I do." With all due respect, that's not all you were objecting to. You earlier said that these people should have stayed in Mexico and made it a better place instead of coming to the U.S., at which point I noted that such a principle as that would serve as a criticism of everyone who came to America from Europe, ever, and asked you if you objected to people doing so. Your answer was simply to the effect that you personally are not those people, but you didn't explicitly state whether or not you disapprove of the practice of leaving one's country and going to another country in general, or if you only disapprove when Mexicans do this in the 21st century. |
| UGoGirl | Posted – 4/24/2007 9:04:57 PM | show profile Mailbag there is no doubt that people in their 40s and 50s are pushed aside in their careers these days. I don't think "kids" in their 20s really get that, or really think it's the kind of thing that could happen to them. Two of my older sisters may be in this boat soon. Ones company has been bought out and the other, if her company isn't bought out they are gradually sending all their work in her department to India. Both are very hard-working, responsible, very good at their jobs, get good performance reviews, etc. But they both know that finding an equivalent job when they are over 40 and unwilling to move is unlikely. Fortunately for both of them, they're both penny pinchers have their homes paid for and live in relatively affordable cities. I have another friend who is having trouble getting a job because she's also not in her 20s or 30s, is viewed as being overqualified for some jobs and not enough of a superstar for others. But seriously, do you really think it's the immigrants fault that you didn't get the dishwashing job? Any hiring manager in his or her right mind would be able to see that you'd last no more than 6 months tops until you found something better. You were probably in that awkward place of being way too qualified for most jobs, too expensive for the ones just right for you (that they want to go cheap with and hire a 25 year old), and not enough of a superstar for the rest. On immigrants, my understanding is that very many of them have fake documentation and they do pay taxes. And God knows we'll need all those taxes in SS and Medicare as the baby boomers start to retire. |
| olegna joven | Posted – 4/25/2007 3:30:11 AM | show profile Viva Mexico! Ojala que llueva Mexicanos en la ciudad de Los Angeles! Arriba la raza! |
| mailbag | Posted – 4/25/2007 8:00:38 AM | show profile | email poster Immigration is not equal Desu, yes I do contend that someone's priority should be fixing their own country. Not to bring up the past, since I don't find it relevant to actions of this day, people of this country did stand up 200 yrs ago. I cannot believe this is impossible for Mexico. There are indeed good people in Mexico and undoubtedly strong leaders. The best get murdered, and yes, it will be a painful episode in their nation to carry out a revolution. The rich will have to leave Mexico City. Shit happens. Our country needs a revolt as well... our current administration should be overthrown. This is a problem I think both Mexico and the USA share today -- only dictators are lined up to take the place of our current dictators. We however are not alone. Europe faces a much different immigration issue and they are handling it poorly too. If you or I were natives of Turkey, we would be granted access to Germany with no questions asked. But as we - from the USA - apply to live/work in either Germany or France, we would not receive the same treatment. In my view we must take a stand as unpopular as it might be, in whichever nation we have most allegiance. There is a process here for Mexicans (majority of illegals) to apply. Why don't they follow before arriving? How is it that should I just drop myself in France I'd get in deep dodo and deported (and the employer fined and face loss of business) if I tried what Mexicans in particular seem to get away with here? How is it that when I ask of those in support of free immigration - no one can answer these questions? Fair for one = fair for all. Until that happens, I hold my ground. "UGoGirl...But seriously, do you really think it's the immigrants fault that you didn't get the dishwashing job?" Ugo, proving such evidence opens the Hilton up for a little lawsuit... I suspect, due to their surnames and accents, the hiring managers in all of these cases were legal immigrants themselves. Say I went over that manager's head and struck a deal with top management to make beds or wash dishes for however long? (just to get part time cash coming in while continuing the job search.) The working manager would resent my actions to get in - not a great moral booster. I say this because it reflects what I call a subculture in the workplace today that is a dirty little secret. I am of the old school and had no fear making beds after a 10-year IBM career. Shit happens. lol. With this one example, I concluded the bottom of the ladder was shut. Who else is shut out besides this middle aged white man? A working single mom in the Bronx trying to get back into the workforce? (Or in it for the first time?) A family man from Harlem who lost his job? What are the alternatives if all minimum wage (non skilled) labor is secretly reserved for some group in a club? |
| UGoGirl | Posted – 4/25/2007 8:43:57 AM | show profile Mailbag, just curious. Did you try temp work? My dad did that when he was out of work for a while in his 50s just to bring some cash in. I think the temp. gig he did was bookbinding or something like that. And I also agree, if it came down to it work is work. Do whatever you need to do to bring a little in. I think the WORST job I see these days (you may not see them in NYC) is the human sign. People who stand out on a corner holding up a big sign for a furniture store having a sale. But in the end, whatever it takes... |
| A~ | Posted – 4/25/2007 8:55:37 AM | show profile The best Mexican leaders get murdered? Are you talking about Colosio? Robert Madrazo's father (who died in a mysterious plane crash)? Or are you going back to the Revolution? I'm confused. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on Mexican history. The rich leave Mexico City? What are you talking about? The people did rise up, it's called the Mexican Revolution. They kicked out American energy and transportation companies and created the world's first Socialist Constitution. 20th Century Mexican history is complicated, especially it revolutionary and post-revolutionary history. It's interesting how somebody who cries fouls on your comment that "those Mexicans are ruining my beloved city of Los Angeles" suddenly becomes in your eyes an advocate for illegal immigration. We can discuss immigration policy, but when you toss out some racist bullshit about how Mexicans have ruined your beloved city, well, that's another thing. Again: Mexicans have been as much a part of US history as Jews, Chinese, Irish, etc., all of whom came here either as beneficiaries of a very liberal immigration policy (in the past) or illegally. Most Mexicans in LA are legal residents and American citizens, by the way. PS - It's not as easily as you make it sound for a Turk to emigrate to Germany. PPS - My parents relocated to France. A lot of bureaucracy, but it's not as hard as you make it sound -- that whole painting Americans as victims of European immigration policy that favors Turks (?) is quite laughable. It's WAY easier for an American to relocate to Europe than somebody from North Africa or the Middle East (or Turkey, if you consider Turkey part of Europe). |
| Nikongirl | Posted – 4/25/2007 11:06:55 AM | show profile So then, shouldn't we all be speaking in North American native tongue? I mean if we want to start chatting about who was where FIRST. WE, pasty-faced, white people, were NOT the first ones here and were in fact guilty of ruining hundreds of thousands of lives when we boarded all those ships bound for glory and landed on North American soil...The white man murdered and pillaged his way across this vast swath of land known as North America. My husband's grandmother WAS full blooded North American Native, perhaps her descendants could talk about how the white man destroyed the lives and land of Native Americans who WERE HERE FIRST. Neither my Viking ancestors nor me can hold claim to any part of North American soil. ### |
| Desu | Posted – 4/25/2007 12:01:22 PM | show profile "Desu, yes I do contend that someone's priority should be fixing their own country." So you do believe that the European immigrants should have stayed home, and that the U.S. should never have been founded? |
| mailbag | Posted – 4/25/2007 1:41:41 PM | show profile | email poster Desu "Desu... So you do believe that the European immigrants should have stayed home, and that the U.S. should never have been founded?" As I stated Desu, past is past. Must stick to what is important today. For if we go back far enough we could say no one should have left central Africa, where I believe the evidence shows humans first evolved. As we've populated the world silly now, landmass is limited unlike it was even 200 very short years ago. Do I believe those who immigrated to France in the past few years should have stayed home? Certainly... immigrants are destroying Paris too. I have only one friend left in Paris now... four years ago there were six families. They've left - as that was the only solution they found to keeping their version of "peace" alive. Is that what this country will do next? |
| Nikongirl | Posted – 4/25/2007 4:32:00 PM | show profile >>So you do believe that the European immigrants should have stayed home, and that the U.S. should never have been founded?<< It is not so much that the Europeans should have stayed home but that they should not sail away to a foreign land, clearly not theirs, lay claim and steal the land out from under the people who already live there for hundreds of years. So yeah, they should have respected those who dwelled on North American soil when they arrived and behaved as visitors, not come in and claim ownership and proceed to rape, pillage and murder just because they want something someone else has. Gee, sounds so recently familiar?now where have I heard that before? |
| mailbag | Posted – 4/25/2007 5:02:58 PM | show profile | email poster A- A-... the exact quote was: "Mexico has destroyed the city of my birth and the city I once loved." I'm surprised that you misquoted me actually. If you have read what I've written... this is about a group, largely undefined by individuality -- much in the way journalists are, who take advantage of policy and processes. History is done - dead - over with. I do not blame my German buddies today for what their parent's parents did to Jews. Or I'd be to blame myself simply because I have German and Jewish blood. I do blame illegal Mexicans in California today (southern in particular) for turning the area into a toilet. Is it any one single man or woman, no, it is a collective group much in the way it was a collective group who burned Paris. PPS - we've discussed France before, you and I, I did not have the luxury your parent's enjoy. Different circumstances... I applied to immigrate without a job and without much cash. I needed to secure a legal job for what remains of my life. At retirement that is where I'll settle... still 20 yrs away. (Then again if global warming happens as Ugo says, I might pick Norway. :) |
| sWordplay | Posted – 5/17/2007 10:56:21 AM | show profile What about Puerto Rico? Past is not past. We are still colonizing other countries, in Puerto Rico's case at the expense of U.S. citizenship. Puerto Rico at this point is a U.S. state in all but name - it is subject to our federal laws and its citizens are acknowledged U.S. citizens. Of course, most of them don't speak English. Neither do many of the citizens of Hawai'i. The U.S. continues to expand, and those lands into which we expand, remarkably enough, will not be full of the Anglo-Saxons of middle age you seem to expect automatically. Speakers of other languages are not 'new' to California. They have been there as long as California has been there. Though yes, there are many new immigrants, and yes, many are breaking the law to live in this country, there are many peoples who do not speak English because this is equally their country, and they are one of the many cultures that currently exists within it. You've been avoiding the following question during this entire debate, and I'd like to put it forward again - If those who come to this country ought abide by the laws of those already here, why then do the Native American tribes not have every right to belittle you for not speaking their native language? Theirs is not a dead culture - it still exists, and they were still here first. As for outsourcing, I agree with everyone here that it's irritating to be directed to India. I'll note this though - nobody seems to particularly have a problem with the fact that they are Indians. We have a problem with the fact that they seem to not be trained to help with the problem. If I had a technical problem with my laptop and some guy who answered the phone in India could actually HELP me, I'd be all for it. I don't mind so much when jobs are outsourced to people who can perform better. I mind when they are outsourced to people who are not trained, and therefore perform much worse. |
| ManhattanMatt | Posted – 5/17/2007 2:36:53 PM | show profile American Express, ironically ... DOES outsource its customer service to India. However I noticed when they upgraded my card to a different color, the number I call for customer service now is always answered by a New Yorker. |
| mailbag | Posted – 5/17/2007 10:52:15 PM | show profile | email poster swordplay "Swordplay What about Puerto Rico? Past is not past." What about Puerto Rico? Hey it should be a state imo, but that means redesigning flags and giving PR a larger voice in D.C. The powers that be do not wish this inconvenience (imo.) If PR was full of right-wing religious zealots who drove SUVs with gun racks, I'm sure we'd have 51 states by now. "...We are still colonizing other countries..." Not a business the USA should be in any longer. Taking over another country is no longer in vogue. Not only that - this country can't even take over Afghanistan or Iraq, so we obviously lose across the board in the invasion game today. "...They have been there as long as California has been there. Though yes, there are many new immigrants, and yes, many are breaking the law to live in this country, there are many peoples who do not speak English because this is equally their country, and they are one of the many cultures that currently exists within it." We don't agree that people who arrive here, and break the law, have any rights whatsoever. Fix that first and I'll consider whether my voting card should be in two languages. "...If those who come to this country ought abide by the laws of those already here, why then do the Native American tribes not have every right to belittle you for not speaking their native language? Theirs is not a dead culture - it still exists, and they were still here first..." If what you say is true... why is Native American language not taught in school? Why do the grocery stores have Spanish and not various native languages? I don't think I've avoid answering any questions - I do however contend no one answers mine. "..As for outsourcing, I agree with everyone here that it's irritating to be directed to India. I'll note this though - nobody seems to particularly have a problem with the fact that they are Indians..." I'll say that there is no problem with Indians because they are living where they do... they have not come here to take hand outs and work a flawed system to benefit their family, while taking our jobs... Instead they just take our jobs from afar. Not much you can do about that except boycott companies that outsource. "...I mind when they are outsourced to people who are not trained, and therefore perform much worse..." As a former IBMer who lost his job to India, yes indeed Indians have not been trained for the work IBM has - and Citi, AmEx, FedEx, and any other customer service center trying to save $ by moving support abroad. Here is a tip - don't hire IBM, they can no longer support customers. They can't even handle their urgent open tickets for corporate clients today. I fail to see the link between outsourcing and immigration though. Outsourcing to another country costs jobs on our soil... as time goes on we try our best to move on and make the best of it here with career. When someone swims ashore to the USA, learns to play the system without paying for that same system "I've" paid for since the age of 17, that is not only wrong on their part, but criminal, immoral and since it is my money I can be mad as hell about it. As stated before, once every legal citizen is taken care of in the USA then we can consider opening doors for more. |
| anabritana | Posted – 5/18/2007 2:17:12 PM | show profile Wow, I am shocked To hear any protests on this board concerning many of the problems the influx of illegals have had on many cities and communities. I truly believed everyone would come out swinging for the rights of illegals over the rights of Americans. Ok, but back to the initial post on customer service: It makes me angry that my social security number is in the computer systems for many people abroad to see. Of course, people see it here, too, but it just makes me nervous, I will admit it. The only customer service people I have dealt with by phone who are situated in the U.S., are the people from Coldwater Creek. They treat you with respect, answer all your questions and the country accepts returns -- even if you wore the clothes. It falls apart after several months -- as one sweater did -- they took it back no questions asked. Now, where was that sweater made, I ask..... |
