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Topic: This is nuts!
| Author | Message |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 6/24/2007 8:02:32 PM | show profile I think, as far as design goes, there is a huge glut in the industry, thereby driving salaries (if you want to call them that) lower and lower while employers have the upper hand when it comes to qualification requests. I recently saw a posting for a designer in the Denver area requiring 10 years of exp. in print, web, film, TV, outdoor, and multimedia and they were paying $35K. This is in Denver, not the cheapest place to live, yet still not even close to NYC. There you have it. Employers are asking for the moon for very little money depending on the attractiveness of the area. In other words, LOTS of people want to move to Boulder/Denver and they're not all engineers! They're talented and well-educated folks in our fields. After 25+ years of exp., I was actually offered a job at a monthly in Boulder (let's just say at a "cycling" rag...you can figger it out) about 2 years ago for $40K/year!!! I was making about $10K more than that in WISCONSIN, for God's sake, where the cost of living was approx. 30% cheaper! It seems that one has to live in Godforsaken-ville, USA and make an okay salary since they can't get anyone to relocate there (for obvious reasons) or live in a tent in places like Boulder, Aspen, Seattle, Mt. Hood, Portland, or Eugene, OR., you know...the "livable" places. NOT! I'm changing careers. This is nuts! |
| candylilacs | Posted – 6/24/2007 8:15:01 PM | show profile I feel your pain. Many editorial jobs don't pay more than $35,000 in San Diego (not where I went to live!) but I interviewed for several jobs where they thought me asking for $40,000 was greedy. It was like that there when it wasn't at all cheap to live there. Someone said, "Because everyone wants to live in San Diego, they figure they can pay less." Anyway, good luck. My friend who's an art director finally got a job (after *seven* interviews) in SoCal where they paid her $70,000 a year. It took her a few years, though. ------ http://www.mswritesguide.blogspot.com |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 6/24/2007 9:19:55 PM | show profile that's ridiculous! I 'm seriously thinking of "selling my soul" for a decent-paying job ($80K+ per year...that's what I was making in the late 90s, for God's sake!). |
| mailbag | Posted – 6/24/2007 9:55:37 PM | show profile | email poster I hate to add to your pain C.D., but have you browsed CVs of recent college grads lately? Talk about shock. Now, true, they can't say 10yrs experience - but they do list filming, writing, production, copyediting, internship at the NYT (or another major paper,) study abroad program, two languages, on the masthead of community paper -- the laundry list blows my mind. This is not rare. Just went through hiring process for $40k in NYC and the amount of skills, experience, and references for at least a dozen of apps in their mid-20s were quite amazing. I bet, some cheeky media HR person would forgo the 10yr experience knowing they can hire some bright energetic kid for less. |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 6/24/2007 10:08:48 PM | show profile mailbag- That may be true for edit. types but for designers/ADs? I think not. Nothing holds a candle to experience in the field for an art director! And I speak 3 languages (which has never advanced my career one iota, I might add). |
| seeattleme | Posted – 6/25/2007 1:13:53 AM | show profile the same could be said about editing and reporting experience. You have no idea how to handle a live reporting spot--a shooting or hostage situation or a natural disaster -- unless you've actually been through afew and reported them (and lived to report more). But it's all about $$$$. If an employer can save a few bucks, and can find someone eager to take the pay cut--sually individuals who have other sources of income available--that's what's going to become the norm in this industry. Unless people stop reading crap, challenege papers and pubs on the crap that is consistently written and put out there, and talented individuals in the industry start sticking up for themselves--and others-- on a regular basis, and at the risk of not getting a job or two. I have no idea how it would be done, and in newspapers they don't work anyway, but to quote Norma Rae: UNION. |
| mailbag | Posted – 6/25/2007 8:32:02 AM | show profile | email poster CD I trust what you say is true about your experience. The art side is really out of my world. This much I can say though - on the street -- whether relevant or not, you tell me -- a few little young friends I have that produce YouTube videos incorporate graphic design that I think is better than many items I see in print or in Ads. I guess that the tools available to them -- add to that some countless hours of free time they have sitting at home to create whatever they want has opened these doors to creative expression. I do NOT know how much weight that carries. True, they would not have the experience in years. How important is that really to your world though when it comes down to it? Back to my earlier jab at HR people -- would they take some young hot shot who has 100 superb videos on YouTube over you? (That is probably going to answer your question no?) |
| Metro Writer | Posted – 6/25/2007 10:50:14 AM | show profile It doesn't help when eager newbies are willing to write for tuppence. While blogs have a place in the media, most of those people who are bragging about being long-time bloggers are just writing for free. |
| WordyBird | Posted – 6/25/2007 11:14:07 AM | show profile | email poster CD--"selling your soul?" Yep, I've thought about that. I've been told I could make a killing if I went over to the "Dark Side." You can drop me a line if you want to know what the folks in my world consider the Dark Side. I don't want to mention it here because A) I don't want to slam a specific niche in a specific industry, and B) I might just do it! And I totally understand what you mean about location. I had a recruiter e-mail me and call me and offer to pay to relocate me for a job that paid $90K-$100K as a copy director for a catalog--about 30 minutes outside Madison, Wisconsin. Now I love me some Blue states and Milwaukee is tons of fun (really a well-kept secret) but I don't know anyone in Madison and I don't do well in temperatures that cold for that much of the year. If you change careers, what will you do? |
| JimmyG | Posted – 6/25/2007 4:07:05 PM | show profile One "problem" in the graphics world today, versus a couple decades ago, is that kids come out of school these days better armed to compete with veterans, given their access to technology. Back when I started out your first job was as a keyliner (cough--geezer--cough), not a designer. A pal of mine in NYC lamented a few years ago that he spent 20 years in the trenches learning video animation, only to suddenly be competing with college grads and their laptops. When he started out the board he worked on cost megabucks and required intense training to operate. Same with editorial. Some grads have four or more different internships under their belts when they hit the streets, which is a fairly recent phenomenon. All most of us '70's grads had when we left school was a well-worn bong and some credits writing for the school paper. |
| mailbag | Posted – 6/25/2007 4:21:42 PM | show profile | email poster Yeah, Jimmy, that is my point exactly. On the publishing end too - there was a thread around here many months back on the book deals a few bloggers got due to their blogs. While true, that number is few, still, they got the deal, didn't sweat, didn't do the college degree thing, but someone (moi in particular) who has been writing for 20 years +, has the MA - I stand no chance. I'm not cool enough while I'm alive. (A dead author stands a chance. That is my next hope. lol.) |
| catlondon | Posted – 6/25/2007 5:04:12 PM | show profile It's true in the video production world, too. It doesn't take much of a capital outlay to buy yourself a Final Cut Pro and go into business. And some of the 23-year-olds I'm working with are very talented--they've grown up saturated in visual media in a way I, old lady that I am, didn't. In addition, while media has some space for the graying "elderstatesperson", it really loves young, hip, and edgy. Notice, no one ever asks for middle-aged, hip, and edgy. |
| mailbag | Posted – 6/25/2007 5:41:13 PM | show profile | email poster I would cat. I dig middle-aged professionalism, experience, and our edge. :-D I'm prejudice -- I still think those +40 can out do, out smart, out-anything a group of 20somethings any day, night, whatever. Our life of experience adds class to our work that someone half our age could not possibly touch. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 6/25/2007 6:55:00 PM | show profile MAilbag, Agreed, but do your publishers agree? Your pub owners agree? Your advertisers agree? Do your readers agree? |
| seeattleme | Posted – 6/25/2007 6:58:50 PM | show profile oh and mailbag--It's just my guess but I'll gues that the YOUTUBE artists you're referrringto have just as much creative innovative energy as the rest of us--they just can put WHATEVER THEY WANT out there. No one's over-editing it, secondguessing it, saying no, or it won't work, or "we don't do that, our EIC or CD doesn't "like" that style/color/vision/take/design (er)/school of thought..." blah blah blah. On the internet it's anything goes and whatever the f&*^ I want. In publishing, you gotta jump through hoops and filters of the insecure and arrogant. That's why I'm still waiting on a story assignment six months later--a story I'll bet will appear on someone's blog or the Internet any day now. |
| mailbag | Posted – 6/26/2007 6:59:44 AM | show profile | email poster doglady DL - I think I'm lucky to work for a private firm where media is only one of several directives. I get to drive the program, develop and implement our media strategy... Again - I do consider myself very lucky. It sounds to me from reading threads here of those working for media-only companies that publishers / owners do not agree with what comments we old folks have posted. I agree on the youtube comment... they do have no guides or restrictions or strategy to follow. These kids (and some adults) just create whatever they want. What is their goal though? To become stars on youtube? or develop projects to advance their careers? There is no doubt that some film students I've watched there created compelling enough content to keep me interested for the 10 minutes or so duration. If they can keep ME watching - they can keep anyone. The time, energy, extras needed for such a project are certainly not available to me. Maybe that is generational... how many of us in our 40s and up would spend a week being an extra in a buddy's film project? We have a life and a job. Listen - I've posted my share of films on youtube too - the amount of time it takes is a killer.... I've made a rule for myself that if I can't put the whole project together on a Saturday, I won't do it. Not important enough to me...I need my weekends to be out and involved with 'non-media-related' activities. But some people have weeks to dedicate to editing their projects. Good for them I suppose. In some cases that effort shows in quality work. |
| JimmyG | Posted – 6/27/2007 12:07:35 PM | show profile Yes, anyone with true talent can sit at home and given today's tools, create a good-looking video, animation or fanzine. The difference is the ability to channel one's creativity at will, on time, on budget, to the client's liking and be able to work with and manage all the other prima donnas within and outside of the corporate food chain in the process. That's the challenge of being a professional and it's a skill one can't easily develop in mom and dad's rec room at odd hours of the night. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 6/27/2007 6:56:30 PM | show profile Jimmy G in the end who the fuck cares? It's about $$$$. The most-watched You Tube audeince recorded last spring was two 17 year olds jumping on a couch playing air guitar. You can't make it too complicated. Professionalism, budget, these are things that are important to the uptight suitmonster Cathie Blacks of the world (who hired Ann Shoket--tell me, has Seventeen EVER sucked WORSE?????) . The Ben Silverman's have arrived to say, "Who the fuck cares? We have money to burn and everyone knows it! If it's good, it's showtime! Stop the chatter! I don't wanna hear about focus groups. If it's entertaining, let's see it!" Mark my word, you'll be seeing boobies on Must see TV very soon. And there will be fines. And network TV will start saying, we don't care! The numbers are up, and numbers mean billions in advertising! Shut the suits up. Put them in a room with fourteen stoned monkeys and two -dozen knives! And film it. Then air it!" Copyright--Doglady |
| mailbag | Posted – 6/28/2007 5:53:59 AM | show profile | email poster Don't think many do care anymore I'm amazed too DL how little creativity -- and totally boring content -- can become so popular on youtube. Gotta 'consider the source.' Many youtubers are missing light bulbs upstairs... presume they are the same idiots enjoying nonsense television shows, brain dead magazines, and Paris Hilton headlines. The dumber content becomes, there is an audience share ready to watch or read. Wish our culture was targeting higher standards. But hey...our culture has the dumb bunny hero sitting in the White House...what else can we expect? This is the era of dumb is king. |
| spring2007 | Posted – 6/29/2007 3:46:39 PM | show profile Why the Animosity? I guess I'm wondering, why the surprise that someone would want to hire someone more technically savvy over someone with experience? No matter what the age, I would want someone who would do the better job. Time alone doesn't make you better. I guess it depends on which area of magazines we're talking about, but I just don't see how 'nothing can hold a candle to experience'. Still, the best jobs do require experience, thus getting us out of your way. Afterall, it is the generation above us that decided that we are worth a meager salary-why is this same generation upset when we take it? |
| mailbag | Posted – 6/29/2007 3:56:36 PM | show profile | email poster spring spring2007, I do not believe that is the case, which leads to this thread. Requirements were that such candidate have excellent skills, plus many years experience (which young ones just cannot unless they started at 15,) however the pay is still entry level in our expensive to live country. Doubt anyone here would disagree that an employer should hire best qualified. There is however a contentious issue on what makes one qualified... years of experience, know how, professionalism; or two years posting super-dude-cool videos on youtube. |
| spring2007 | Posted – 6/29/2007 4:21:52 PM | show profile You don't believe what is the case? That time alone doesn't make you better? That the best jobs require experience? 'Til that question is answered... I do respect people who have been in the industry longer than I (that is...everyone). I know that I can't guess how to run a department...but no one is asking me to do that...though I have had leadership experience. Besides experience (which I guess you're defining as post-graduate experience), young people can have everything that you just said-as you said before, there is more on our resumes than two years of youtube. |
