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Topic: the importance of references
| Author | Message |
| GA>ME | Posted – 7/9/2007 11:57:09 PM | show profile how vital are references? Before my current job, I'd essentially been on vacation for two years. Now that I'd like to move on, I discover that everyone I knew at the company has quit, and I don't know how else to contact them (phone book search has proved fruitless). For the last job I interviewed with, I was only able to submit one reference who managed me, but not at an editorial position. I'd rather not ask a current coworker in confidence to be a reference--work gossip is particularly bad there, and I don't trust their secrecy. Personally, I think they're somewhat useless, but I'm not a hiring manager. is it job suicide to turn in this single non-editing-related reference? any suggestions? Does it matter that much in the first place? The best solution I can think of is to contact old friends still there who didn't so much work with me, but who would say nice things. They've probably forgotten about me after three years. |
| foodlit | Posted – 7/10/2007 9:15:53 AM | show profile References are often extremely vital and what determines whether or not you get hired. Employers typically want to hear from 2 or 3 people who you have directly reported to and/or worked on projects with. They don't care about co-worker or personal references as much. It's understood that a reference will say good things, but what many people don't realize is that it's often what is not said that makes a bigger impression. Which is why you only want to use people who absolutely loved your work, who will rave about how great you are. Seriously. Because if you use a reference who doesn't really remember you or you reported to him/her but it wasn't a great relationship, that person could do damage without saying a single negative thing. In checking a reference, it's all about tone and any hesitations or pauses when asked questions such as "would you hire this person again." If they don't immediately reply with, "Absolutely, I'd love to if it were possible." or something to that effect, then it raises a red flag. A good reference will tell us why you are so good, and what your strengths are, how you worked with others, etc. If the only reference you have is for a non-editing role, then use it, as it will still work for how you were as an employee. I'd really try and see if you can come up with someone from your current company that you trust to give a reference...you don't have to give references until time of offer, and can let the hiring company know that you want to keep it confidential until the end stage of interviewing and they'll be fine with that. References don't typically get checked until just before they're about to extend an offer, so if it gets to that point, there is serious interest. Good luck! Pam |
| elleemby | Posted – 7/10/2007 4:07:38 PM | show profile Question for Pam/foodlit I have 2 great references who I know will answer the "would you hire them again?" question with an immediate yes. It's the 3rd one I have trouble with ... I have one potential one that would say the same, but is from the same place as one of the first two, and is from 5+ years ago. I've had one job in between my current one (which I'm looking to leave) and one with a reference ... will it seem strange to HR if I don't use a reference from this job and yet use 2 from a previous one? |
| foodlit | Posted – 7/10/2007 4:20:31 PM | show profile No, that's fine. Two people who supervised you at the same company is not a problem. You can simply tell hr that you can't locate a former supervisor from the other place if she questions why you don't have a reference from there, or say that you worked longer with these other references and they know your work better. I wouldn't worry about it. Good luck! Pam |
| elleemby | Posted – 7/10/2007 4:50:56 PM | show profile Thanks for the reply, Pam! It makes me feel much better. :) |
| Random Contents | Posted – 7/11/2007 12:42:28 AM | show profile Just continuing this thread on a slightly different tangent...I had a call a few weeks ago to give a reference to HR for an intern I supervised over 2 years ago. Said intern never alerted me that he was listing me as a reference, and I suspect HR got my phone number from my successor at the job where I supervised him, because I'm now at another company, and she had my old title, etc., when she was verifying my info. I'm sure that alone signaled something to her. I'm actually impressed that the HR person went to the trouble of tracking me down beyond the info he gave her. But I felt badly afterward b/c I didn't really give a good reference--I would have liked to, but was completely caught off-guard and honestly couldn't remember lots of specifics, b/c there were several interns after him. And, of course the first thing I thought of were all the negatives and things he did that drove me crazy b/c negatives are just more memorable. Only later in the day did I think of supportive things that I felt bad that I *hadn't* had the chance to share. If he'd told me he was using me as a reference, I would have at least gathered my thoughts in preparation and I'm sure he would have benefitted. As you can tell, I feel a tad guilty that my lukewarm, caught-off-guard reference might have cost him the job. I'm shocked, though, that he didn't realize telling me he was using me as a reference would be advisable! So, just a tip to be sure you touch base with your references, and make sure you have correct info for them and also to alert them/jog their memory before you give them to HR managers..always good form, but especially if it's been a long time. |
| GA>ME | Posted – 7/11/2007 2:10:02 AM | show profile | email poster thanks for the advice about holding off on a reference until the last minute. I think I'll do that. Unfortunately yes, I don't trust a soul in the company to keep even the smallest secret, and then not twist the information to something worse. this is all some great advice and so much appreciated. |
| susantr7261 | Posted – 7/11/2007 10:52:57 AM | show profile Don't worry about references! Most of the time, HR managers, strapped for time, don?t check references anyway. That?s what a 3-12 months probationary period is for. After this period is over, they might or might not check references even then. Further, I had awful supervisors in the past- nightmare bosses from hell- who could care less about using their valuable time to give me and/or anyone a good reference, despite all the work and extra overtime I and/or anyone put in. All they really care about is their cushy, beyond easy 9-5 or 10-6 job, 2-hour lunches, and indulging in personal calls all day long, while giving you all their work and taking credit for it. These so-called awful managers also spend the whole day excessively micromanaging and conjuring trivial tasks for you to do. As an example, my boss would constantly ask me where I was going (even to the restroom) and being big brother with the PC, since he would know the exact not minute, but second, I was done with an assignment and stroll over to my desk and hand me another one. Honestly, landing and keeping any job is all about office politics, after work cocktails, how you look, what you wear, and who you know. It?s not a meritocracy at all; experience and educational credentials don?t really matter, unless they can?t fill the position or need to fill some sort of diversity quota. |
| foodlit | Posted – 7/11/2007 11:40:14 AM | show profile Susan, Your experience is not typical. The vast majority of employers care very much about references. At least all of the hiring managers I've worked with over the past 14 years have. I've checked hundreds of references for my clients, and it's a very important piece of the puzzle. To take it lightly or disregard it could mean not getting a job offer. Pam |
| WordyBird | Posted – 7/11/2007 1:08:04 PM | show profile Susan, I have to disagree. At my organization, not only do they check references, they do a background check. You should always have someone willing to vouch for you, even if the prospective employer doesn't ask. It's just good business to be prepared. |
| observer | Posted – 7/11/2007 1:27:12 PM | show profile a great way to make contact with old co-workers is to get yourself into Linkedin.com. Once you add your resume to the database and enter the years you worked at different employers, it will allow you to link to people you once worked with. i've reconnected with people i haven't talked to in years - some are across town and others across the county. you can request recommendations from these people also. it's a really great tool. |
| Cyrus | Posted – 7/11/2007 4:01:06 PM | show profile With all due respect to Pam, the issue of references has changed a bit in recent years. Many employers, out of legal worries and other concerns, won't do anything but confirm dates of employment these days. That's especially true of major corporations. An employer who DOES care about references won't care about one from a co-worker because they feel they won't really be forthright. This may start a whole brouhaha, but I always felt references were used because employers weren't often confident in who they were hiring. A company that knows how to hire good people will know what they're getting without asking anybody else. This doesn't happen because all too often people doing hiring are managers who, while they were promoted based on how well they do their core job, don't know the first thing about what to look for in people. Somebody who has that skill can size someone up in a 10-minute conversation using answers to conversational questions, not the stupid "where do you see yourself in 10 years" mumbo jumbo. ------ Cyrus Afzali Astoria Communications www.astoriacomm.com |
| foodlit | Posted – 7/11/2007 4:35:50 PM | show profile Cyrus, I agree actually. Probably 95% of the time, your intuition is right on about a candidate, especially if they are referred from someone at the company already. However, you'd be amazed sometimes at how references can uncover things. It's not common, but even the best recruiters and hiring managers can be conned by a smooth interviewer. I'll never forget this one candidate who wowed us all, was charming, intelligent, graduated from an Ivy League college, and had an absolutely gorgeous suit on. My client fell in love with him and discussed an offer immediately...pending the background check. This was for a law firm, so they went beyond the standard reference check and probed more deeply. What they discovered was that everything about this candidate was a lie. Not only did he not graduate from the Ivy League school, he never even attended. He also fudged his dates of employment to cover up a year gap when he was fired from the first job. Needless to say, they rescinded the offer and everyone was completely shocked at how this candidate charmed us into thinking he was someone he was not. Pam |
| tortfeasor21913 | Posted – 7/17/2007 11:08:40 AM | show profile | email poster Similar Situation Here is my situation. I filled out an application on an employers website. I put in my most recent work history. About 4 years back. I got a call for an interview, went to that, it went very well, so they made an offer. I went to take a drug test and fill out paper work the next day. At that time they said they needed 10 years of job history. Here is when things get tricky. I had recently gone through the application for the bar association in my state so I had spent a considerable amount of time gathtering my work history, and getting the dates as accurate as possible and everything. After going though that, and completing my law degree, I was becoming more and more aware that full disclosure is so important this day in age. I sent them a list of all my former employers for the past 10 years. I put myself through college and law school, so I worked several temp jobs and hopped around a bit to make things work. I have had 19 jobs in the past 10 years. So they became concerned when they saw that, and rightfully so. They wanted assurances that I would not treat this as another stepping stone and they wanted job references. I sent them 5 references and I have not heard anything since then. I also contacted the references and they were all very supportive and said they would make it top priority to get back to the company if they called. So the point of my story is references are so important, especially when you are just getting out of school. The majority of the jobs I worked at out of high school and early college do not remember me because they are places that have high turnover, or have closed. Its difficult to verify employment with those companies. Hopefully I will hear something soon, but who knows. I also think it is possible that some employers ask for references and assume they will be good so dont call or only call one. The act of giving the reference is what is representative . So the moral of the story, be honest. I want to company to hire me because they know everything and still think I am a good candidate. |
