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Topic: OK, I'll bite, how do I apply for a marketing job?
| Author | Message |
| candylilacs | Posted – 8/2/2007 1:33:37 AM | show profile I've done 98 percent editorial all my life. I have done some marcom, which is what I assume marketing writing is all about. I have clips and samples for a portfolio. But whenever I have applied for freelance marketing jobs or a full-time job (OK, it was only a few times) they acted as if I had crawled out from under a rock. They seemed to have zero respect for people working in editorial (not to be mean, but marketing is not rocket science and seems to depend on making stuff up, so it's much easier than editorial.) I mean my job as a journalist requires research skills, analytical thinking, creativity and productivity in a very fast-paced environment -- all skills that should be great for a creative environment. Or maybe it's because I'm not part of the marketing club. I hear from everyone it's where you go after enough years in journalism, but I'd like to know how people get them. I've tried and gotten no where. I don't know, maybe I don't look the part enough or use the slang. Any help appreciated. ------ http://www.mswritesguide.blogspot.com |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 8/2/2007 1:56:24 AM | show profile Not to offend, but the issue may be in part your attitude: "marketing is not rocket science and seems to depend on making stuff up, so it's much easier than editorial." I was trained as a journalist, and now do a lot of marketing writing, and personally I've always found marketing much harder. Journalist is intended to inform, while marketing is meant to persuade. And informing is a lot easier than persuading. In fact, the biggest errors I make in my marketing writing is when I accidentally bring some of my journalistic writing attributes into it. So, my suggestion would be to drop the attitude that marketing is easier than journalism, and that marketing people should be delighted that you are deigning to work for them. Now you might not feel this way, but that is how your post comes off to me. And if it comes off that way to me, maybe you're coming off that way to potential employers. Good luck! |
| Mag Girl | Posted – 8/2/2007 8:31:23 AM | show profile Agree with dribble. Good marketing requires research skills as well- who's your audience? Who would be receptive to the message and what message? What does your audience need and how are you going to persuade them? And then there's all the planning skills of timelines, vendor selection, how you'll follow up the campaign, determining success rate, etc. Try nonprofits. But you're going to have to emphasize more skills than just your writing. Even if you personally won't be doing strategic planning, you'll still be part of a team that will be doing it. And you're probably going to have to start near or at the bottom |
| Cyrus | Posted – 8/2/2007 10:52:27 AM | show profile If you said anything in an interview that even remotely looked like you think marketing is making stuff up, that explains a lot. Marketing does involved controlling the message, but it's not about putting things in that are untrue. Also, writing in a marketing sense is in many ways quite the opposite of journalism. You have to be comfortable with being a lot more effusive and using words and phrases that would never be considered objective reporting. Yes, some of it is stupid, like saying a company offers a "value-added solution." But, if it's what your company -- if you're in an agency the client -- wants you to do, you do it. There is a bit of an adversarial relationship on both sides. Since I've been on both sides of the aisle, I can understand it from the journalist's standpoint more than the marketer's, but it exists. Good PR people actually do perform valuable work and represent people doing very complicated things. I know first hand how often journalists are thrown into covering subjects that they may not be that familiar with and what it's like to have to come up with sources and other information in a time crunch. A good PR pro will do that for a journalist, recognizing that both sides benefit from that. Finally, succeeding in PR means managing client expectations, which is a bit of an art, for the lack of a better way to put it. Client service environments are completely different than a newsroom. If you don't keep them happy, your job's in jeopardy. ------ Cyrus Afzali Astoria Communications www.astoriacomm.com |
| candylilacs | Posted – 8/2/2007 11:46:30 AM | show profile I said "help" Let's pretend we're all adults here and no on is idiotic enough to say what they really think to interviewers. Pretend I'm a good/great interviewee but with little marketing experience. Thanks! I do get the "You couldn't possibly do *my* job" vibe from marketeers. And sorry, the few marketing jobs I had were pretty easy, I just wrote one step beyond magazines. Emulating a style of writing has always been easy for me, from writing for alt-weeklies to staid metro dailies to magazines. They all have different voices and styles. Marketing is similar to that. Cyrus, I think you answered the question the best. I was wondering if I was being paranoid that I felt a distinct vibe. As for whomever said I would start at or near the bottom, several of my colleagues have gone directly into mid-level and even supervisory positions (and I'm talking marcom, not directly into marketing companies--although a few I know have, too -- rather into the marketing/communications departments of colleges, unions, nonprofits and for-profits.) Maybe they knew somebody, but it seems as if some journalists seem to make the transition rather seamlessly. ------ http://www.mswritesguide.blogspot.com |
| Cyrus | Posted – 8/2/2007 11:57:49 AM | show profile It's not that hard to make the transition and you don't always start at the bottom. My first agency job was as an account supervisor, which is only 1 or 2 rungs (depending on the place) from a VP and a six-figure salary. A lot of where you start has to do with where you're going. Agencies are proud of the hierarchies they have and believe in you filling a certain set of roles before getting there. One of the reasons I started my own shop is I got tired of working for small PR agencies in the city that were, as a rule, pretty poorly managed. Yet none of the really biggies, short of one, would even talk to me. And they pretty much left me with a feeling that they felt superior. In-house jobs, non-profits, etc. are more forgiving because they just want the job done by the person they believe is best. There's more job security in house, so if you can get it, go for it. ------ Cyrus Afzali Astoria Communications www.astoriacomm.com |
| sue ellen mischke | Posted – 8/2/2007 12:09:08 PM | show profile Talk to some creative outsourcing agencies to start getting your feet wet and build your portfolio. If that doesn't work or during your search, find a good design and start developing a mock portfolio. Simply write some killer copy and ask a designer to mock it up. Maybe take a copywriting class. |
| Mag Girl | Posted – 8/2/2007 12:09:21 PM | show profile If you said you're having trouble with obtaining marketing jobs, then maybe there is something to what I said about having to start at or near the bottom. While yes, there are people who end up not having to do that, that's not as common from what I've seen. And I don't think anyone was being unhelpful...I did give advice in my answer to try nonprofits- they are more likely to bring you in at a higher level and give value to your writing skills. But like I said, even if you are only doing writing in the marketing jobs you are interviewing for, it's more than just emulating tone, and don't kid yourself into thinking that's all there is to it. There's a lot more planning that goes into it than that. So emphasize those sorts of skills in your interviews. And espite what you said in your second post, you sound as if you think you know everything about marketing. Whether you have or have not said outright in your interviews anything to that effect, it very well may be coming out in your tone. You yourself said that you've had friends and colleagues make the switch successfully, so then ask yourself why you haven't been able to. I'm not being snotty- it really is something for you to think about so you can adjust your approach. |
| wineaux | Posted – 8/2/2007 1:33:17 PM | show profile I started as a writer and editor, and made the transition into marketing and pr for a non-profit. What dribble said holds true, in my experience. I sent out resumes all over the place for entry level marketing jobs after years of experience as a writer and didn't get a nibble at any of the places that I felt I could make a legitimate living. The non-profit job was really a lucky coincidence. I had done contracted work for them and their marketing person quit, so I jumped at the chance, and they hired me on a conditional basis, until I was able to prove myself. It worked out well, but I really had to bust my rear to get the swing of things. It was a lot more difficult than I thought it would be. I really think marketing and journalism have distinct differences, and I wouldn't necessarily say one is easier than the other. Like a previous poster said, you have to persuade your audience to be interested in your product, event, etc.... And on top of that, creating the right relationships to properly distribute your message is no easy task, I found. It took me quite awhile to build up a respectable network and to find people responsive to helping me properly promote my non-profit. I would suggest, like others already did, trying to get into a non-profit as a start. That will get you more respect when you want to make the leap onto a higher rung on the ladder. They certainly seem more open minded in regards to hiring editors. |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 8/2/2007 2:10:55 PM | show profile In my experience, marketing and PR are significantly different, though. Most marketing people I deal with have virtually no interaction with or interest in journalists. They are sending out messages directly to potential buyers. I do a lot of technology marketing, and that tends to be an informational sell rather than a snazzy consumer approach sale. But when you get into the science of marketing, it's pretty facinating, such as what kinds of headlines work in email campaigns vs. Google ad campaigns. Really, I think one of the most beneficial things you can do, in preparation for an interview, is to find out what kind of marketing the potential client/employer emphasizes and then use your journalistic training to discover some hot trends and research findings. The best way to impress someone is to tell them someone useful that they were unaware of. You can tell a meeting or interview is going really well when the conversation stops being about you and your qualifications and switches to a real problem or campaign, and you are contributing ideas that excite them. --There is a bit of an adversarial relationship on both sides. Since I've been on both sides of the aisle, I can understand it from the journalist's standpoint more than the marketer's, but it exists. Good PR people actually do perform valuable work and represent people doing very complicated things. I know first hand how often journalists are thrown into covering subjects that they may not be that familiar with and what it's like to have to come up with sources and other information in a time crunch. A good PR pro will do that for a journalist, recognizing that both sides benefit from that.-- |
| rulebook | Posted – 8/2/2007 2:19:13 PM | show profile "Let's pretend we're all adults here and no on is idiotic enough to say what they really think to interviewers. Pretend I'm a good/great interviewee but with little marketing experience. Thanks!" "sorry, the few marketing jobs I had were pretty easy, I just wrote one step beyond magazines." "Emulating a style of writing has always been easy for me, from writing for alt-weeklies to staid metro dailies to magazines." You're an absolute peach! It's criminal that the marketing job offers aren't pouring in. It must be a conspiracy...perhaps the marketing morons are threatened and have colluded to lock you out of the industry, for fear you will make hundreds of positions obsolete,. With your erudite wit and sophisticated tone, that?s got to be it. I see something...it's?it?s your future...I see you never getting a worthwhile job in marketing and then spending a lifetime saying things like "marketing is basically making stuff up, which is why I never went into the industry." |
| foodlit | Posted – 8/2/2007 4:10:07 PM | show profile Okay, I place marketing people and what you are up against frankly is that there are people with far better backgrounds and more experience than you. So, why should they hire you? If you are looking to go in mid-level, you can get there, but it will likely be from an existing connection, so I'd suggest working your network as best possible. Because if you are just sending your resume, you are not going to stand out among those with deeper and more relevant experience. I would be careful too with what kind of vibe you are sending. You don't want to rub people the wrong way by giving the impression that what they do is easy and that you are superior. That won't get you very far....maybe you don't do that, but your initial post here was condescending. Good luck, Pam |
| candylilacs | Posted – 8/2/2007 10:39:49 PM | show profile If you're a writer, you can do any kind of writing. It's simply a question of motivation and practice. Yes, that means technical writing, screenwriting, fiction, nonfiction and even marketing copy. I believe anyone who writes one genre can write in another. Does that mean they do? No. I know screenwriters who would sooner chew off their writing hand than turn in a 15-inch news story. But could they? Probably with motivation and some practice. Maybe I'm also using "marketing" as a catch-all term, since several employers are using the term to mean "PR, Corporate Communications, Marketing, etc." While there aren't very many campaigns, many of the jobs are tending towards the PR/Communications side, requiring press releases, updating company Web sites, speaking to the public/press and occasional copywriting. Thanks for the help! ------ http://www.mswritesguide.blogspot.com |
| candylilacs | Posted – 8/2/2007 10:42:28 PM | show profile And, MG, thanks about the copywriting course, I think that may help -- once I find one! |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 8/3/2007 1:26:54 AM | show profile I agree anyone can write in any of those formats. However, they might really suck at some of them. I am a pretty eclectic writer -- having done fiction, scripts, marketing copy, and non-fiction, but there are certainly some areas I would be terrible at -- poetry and technical writing come to mind first. --Yes, that means technical writing, screenwriting, fiction, nonfiction and even marketing copy. I believe anyone who writes one genre can write in another. -- |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 8/3/2007 2:03:24 AM | show profile I would consider this PR as opposed to marketing. If you are dealing with large companies, the two disciplines are significantly different. PR is often considered a lesser subset of marketing. If you have a choice, marketing is probably a better tract than PR, since marketing as a discipline s developing better metrics to tie its efforts to revenues while PR probably will always be seen as an expense (and if you are in the corporate arena, you don't want to be viewed as an expense). --Maybe I'm also using "marketing" as a catch-all term, since several employers are using the term to mean "PR, Corporate Communications, Marketing, etc." While there aren't very many campaigns, many of the jobs are tending towards the PR/Communications side, requiring press releases, updating company Web sites, speaking to the public/press and occasional copywriting.-- |
