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Topic: Son interested in fiction writing; schools, progs?
| Author | Message |
| writesonwater | Posted – 9/9/2007 9:58:11 PM | show profile | email poster My son is still in high school, but interested in writing fiction for a living. He has great grades across the board and stands a shot at National Merit status. Current career possibilities include law and medicine, but he has wanted to write fiction for a long time and shows a flair for it in his own writing. Anyone have any recommendations for college options should he choose the fiction option? |
| catlondon | Posted – 9/9/2007 10:53:08 PM | show profile First the gray cloud--very few writers earn a living writing fiction. A day job will be almost essential, so he should look at a school that will fit both bills and perhaps double major. I don't mean that he shouldn't pursue fiction writing, just be realistic about what it entails. (Although perhaps you can provide a trust fund?) He should look at authors he admires and see where they teach, if they do teach. University of Iowa is the preeminent college for writers, but they operate more at the graduate level. Hollins University is a small school in VA that has turned out a number of fine writers. Most schools these days offer creative writing as a major. He should investigate who teaches at the program, how often their graduates have published and where, what resources they offer to help their students publish and how big are the writing workshops at the undergraduate level--will he get one on one time with an experienced instructor? He should also realize that most people who write fiction write for small literary magazines and that few of these mags pay actual money--that's why they all teach. If he wants to be the special, newsworthy undergrad who scores the big book deal right out of college, he will have to attend an Ivy League, like Harvard, Yale or Columbia, where the networking is stellar. Otherwise, he'll have to work his up through the unpaid trenches. So, good for him for wanting to follow his dream! I wish him much luck. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 9/9/2007 11:33:27 PM | show profile | email poster Yes, we've talked about the gray cloud -- and with a mom who's a full-time freelancer, he sees me busting it to make a living. LOL on the trust fund idea ;) Tonight we were looking at college ideas (he's a sophomore -- we've got time) and if he needs a dayjob, he kind of likes law for a day job; work as an attorney would use his verbal and analytical skills for sure. He thinks he'd like to go to school in the northeast -- think New York or Maryland maybe? He'd also like to play tennis, but although he's near the top of the varsity roster and competitive in USTA play, he has no illusions about playing for a great tennis school. University of Iowa and Hollins University, interesting. Interesting feedback on the Ivy Leagues -- he's a big fish in the little pond here testwise but I don't think he has the internal discipline or desire to do the Valedictorian/Salutatorian thing. We were looking at CUNY which has a prelaw program at one of its colleges. I'd love to see him go to U of Maryland to be close to his brothers. I really appreciate your feedback, Cat. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 9/10/2007 1:12:37 AM | show profile Iowa, or english at Stanford w/creative writing and a Stegner.Univ of Oregon ain't bad either (lots of Stegners head up there, and it's affordable compared to an MFA at Columbia. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 9/10/2007 2:19:24 AM | show profile I'm really getting irritated by these tipcell people who keep posting this spam inbetween legit posts. This is ridiculous. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 9/10/2007 2:23:54 AM | show profile That's interesting -- Oregon or Iowa. I told him tonight he could definitely get a pre-law undergrad degree and take some great writing courses, and then have a springboard for either an MFA or a JD. He still has a couple years, but he's very interested in the research. I went over the math of getting a National Merit scholarship with him. That may seem like undue pressure but he had the highest PSATs in a class of 400 -- and his brother, who didn't even have that high of PSATs, went into major prep for the SAT and made National Merit -- and the scholarships rolled in so fast it made us dizzy. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 9/10/2007 12:26:26 PM | show profile with all due respect, I would question whether or not someone who wants to write fiction would be happy in a profession like the law, or anything related. Plenty of lawyers--well, a few big ones, Grisham, Turow (also a Stegner fellow) --work for a bit as lawyers but go back to writing fiction, in both cases full time. Those are the two that are successful. Think of all those who went into law and aren't as successful, scribing away at novels they really love to write but aren't able to complete or perfect because of the need to practice law 80 hours a week (what most good law firms require, especially at the beginning). I would let your son make up his own mind about what he wants to do and where he wants to go. He can always change it. But if you want good prelaw and good creative writing, I would say Stanford. As for the national Merits, those are very hard to get. Even if you make the numbers cut, and I know plenty who have, actually getting your hands on one requires other skills and talents--plus they go for geographic diversity (as much as they can, anyway). Now, there are other scholarshiups but none are guaranteed all four years. Your son would have to keep up a pretty high GPA, tough to do at a tough college (not Stanford, where you can drop a class until the day of the final and they don't give F's or many D's, for that matter). Send your kid to a private school and you will be paying something unless he gets a full ride. It's that simple. So if cost is a concern, look at the good public schools as well. Iowa and Stanford are very expensive, Oregon is fairly expensive. UC Davis has creative writing and is a great school, Kings Hall is a top tier law school--more expensive for non California residents but not as obscene as say, Bennington. If he does go to law school, where he attends undergrad is not nearly as important as where he attends law school--and well he does at both. And I wouldn't recommend either if he wants to write fiction. |
| catlondon | Posted – 9/10/2007 5:08:34 PM | show profile Hi, Writesonwater: A lot of the posts in this thread deal with MFA programs. Yous son should also be aware that many of the name instructors who teach creative writing ONLY teach grad students. When he's exploring schools, that is something he should check out--will he have a chance to be in a classroom with the Pulitzer-prize winning author who is teaching there? Also, some the biggest names make some of the worst teachers--so it can be a crap shoot. A school with a good literary magazine is also something to look for--he can work on staff and get a good feel for the market, what other writers are doing and the long, drawn-out process of publishing fiction. If you're looking in the Maryland area, also check out George Mason University in Northern VA, which has a good writing program and a law school. Again, good luck. He could be a para-legal during the day and writer at night until he knows which way to go! |
| writesonwater | Posted – 9/10/2007 7:09:16 PM | show profile | email poster GG, thanks for the input. It's hard to say how deep his commitment is to writing which is one of the reasons I'm trying to let him sort it out. In elementary and middle school it was his passion -- he penned Lord of the Rings-style fiction in every free moment. His current consuming passion is his sport, tennis, big fish in a small sports pond. But he still talks about writing. Yes, National Merits are tough to get. My husband led the summer SAT tutorial program at our school district for several years and for those who attended all sessions and did all homework, the average point gain was 200; a friend's daughter took Sylvan's prep program and gained 200 as well. For those within striking distance when they take the SAT, say high 1200s-plus, it's absolutely worth the effort. And even those not in reach benefit by upping their score. The kind of divergent background -- volunteer work, extracurricular activity -- National Merit calls for is something many families work at for scholarship (and personal development) sake anyway. For finalists, what remains is to connect with a college that recognizes National Merit. Some go bigtime -- the University of Oklahoma has the biggest program catering to NM grads; it's pretty much an in at some schools. For my oldest, it meant an $80,000 education at a well-funded private school that had the best training in the country for his desired major. He paid for books. Of course, as you mentioned, he had to keep up his grades. He continued to do community service -- tutoring inner city kids in math. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 9/10/2007 7:14:09 PM | show profile | email poster Cat, thanks for the input. We're starting to look at some of these areas. My older son has a friend who went to George Mason and said it's a great school. That might be an interesting possibility. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 9/10/2007 7:19:17 PM | show profile | email poster It has to be said on the National Merit that highly selective/top tier schools aren't necessarily as impressed with it as mid-tier ones. The weird thing is that by the time you find out you're a National Merit finalist, there's very little time to re-evaluate your options. Our son's NM status prompted us to HURRY and re-examine who offered big packages for him, as the private school he had chosen was only prepared to pay for half his education. He ended up going to a much better school, and now has a full-ride in a masters program, also in his field, at a very well-respected school. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 9/10/2007 7:59:45 PM | show profile I'm sorry, but I'm public U educated and I would NEVER EVER pay $80,000 for an education. Not when there are fantastic schools that cost less than ten grand a year. And I've worked with these expensive degree earners. Unless you are determined to be President (and that's changing, and even then you gota be or marry rich) or sit on the Supreme Court (that's changing too); it ain't worth it. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 9/10/2007 9:55:05 PM | show profile How much are Stanford and UC Davis? I guess I was assuming they'd be pretty pricey. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 9/10/2007 11:50:56 PM | show profile Bummer -- Stanford was $30k a year in 1998. We might have to aim a WEE bit lower ;) |
| writesonwater | Posted – 9/10/2007 11:57:29 PM | show profile | email poster Okay - Iowa's a little lower. A LITTLE. $26,700 a year for out of state, half that if we move to Iowa NOW ;) UC Davis is about $29k a year. Sigh. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 9/11/2007 12:22:12 AM | show profile $29 K a year???? Are you SURE about that????? It's still cheaper than Stanford, which is about 60 K a year nowadays. After two years he's a california resident. The cost goes way down. I paid $700 a semester to attend a UC, but that was in the early 90s. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 9/11/2007 12:30:01 AM | show profile It looks like he can become a california state resident a year after his 18th birthday if he lives in california for the entire year, gets a California drivers license, submits a california income tax form (which he should do to get him off yours for more financial aid anyway, after two years the school won't require you submit a taz form for federal aid) and, there was one other. Then the cost of tuition goes down to about $8,000 a year. |
| Bleak Spouse | Posted – 9/11/2007 1:57:45 AM | show profile I'd suggest not going to school for creative writing. Study something practical and get a minor in creative writing. The chances of making a living as a fiction writer and almost zero. It's like saying you want to be a rock star or famous movie star or a pro football player. Hell, even writers who are famous still have to teach for a living. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 9/11/2007 2:25:27 AM | show profile Most bachelor programs in CW ARE minors. Or creative writing concentrated and include English/comp lit/journalism classes. You can also do practical things with a creative writing skill, believe it or not. It's my experience that pressing a person who is devoted to fiction writing to do something else only leads to misery and lifetime unhappiness. These people--if they are serious about creative writing or creative expression, need to find a way to incorporate real life into those oputlets and ways of being, not the other way around. Sucks, but it is what it is. Yep, you probably won't be rich. But being rich don't usually matter to these people. Staying sane does. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 9/11/2007 4:17:35 AM | show profile This is all darn fine advice. Thanks for all the input. I'll let him read it for himself as he mulls his options! More input is always great. Appreciate y'all. |
| Bee News | Posted – 9/11/2007 10:45:30 AM | show profile I don't know much, but as a recent college graduate (obviously the choice is HIS) I would suggest English (maybe even communication) Pre-Law with a minor in Creative Writing. Covers all the areas and is still very practical. |
| Doc19 | Posted – 9/11/2007 1:17:07 PM | show profile The parent trap Do not fall for the glossy brochures and poofy marketing campaigns that visit your son's high school. I graduated in 2001 from a "prestigious university." I only qualified for half-tuition and because of the loans I took out I now owe upwards of $50,000. I make $30,000, I'm 28, and I still live with my grandmother. What's more is that I didn't find my school all that special for the $30,000 price tag it had then. Sure there was Chicken Fila and BK in the cafeteria, and ice sculpture at the convocation, and dorm rooms with their own bathrooms, but it was like anywhere else once you got beyond the fluff. There were students who lived in the library, students who lived in the bars, and students in between the two, like myself, that got little out of it besides the occasional "wow, XXXXXXXXXX University!," from a relative or two. That, and the rude awakening that unlike the majority of my schoolmates, my tuition was not paid in cash, my parents were not going to put me up in some posh apartment, and not having a Beemer on campus was no fluke. It took me a long time to remember that I was middle to lower middle class and that I was going to have to work my ass off for even flakes of the pie crust. My friends who went to public schools are not living on easy street either, but they haven't come close to racking up the kind of debt I have. And most if not all no longer live with mom and dad. Anything I consider, travel, jobs, whatever requires me to think about whether I can send in that $500 payment at the end of the month. It's not insurmountable, I'll make a lot more someday, but it's definitely an ongoing obstacle. My unsolicited advice to the original poster is this: let your son take a year off after high school to work in a 7-11, a gas station, whatever; that way when he gets to college, public or private, he'll know what reality is, and he won't spend the majority of his time around a beer keg. And throw out the ratings books. U.S. News and the like are doing students a great disservice. Good luck. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 9/12/2007 10:38:29 PM | show profile | email poster Thanks for the input. That degree plan sounds good, bee. and doc, i'm with you on the big loans. with our oldest, we rejected schools that would leave him taking out loans for half. congratulations on your graduation from a prestigious school. sorry about the loans. I hear you on letting him take a year off to work, but this strategy doesn't work for everyone. some never get back in. my middle child's still picking away at his degree, alternating with time off to earn cash or figure out what he wants to do. he's 24. sooner or later he might be saddled with a family or whatever -- and the longer he delays school. the longer he delays earning a decent living (in many, not all, instances). Fortunately our oldest plowed straight through college with a degree plan in demand. agree on the ratings books -- it's like rating public schools. there's a lot to take into account and the ratings don't do them justice -- the kind of job the schools do compared the the demographics and budgets they're faced with, for example. |
