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Topic: Pay Issue--Need to Vent
| Author | Message |
| Astera | Posted – 10/18/2007 6:02:07 PM | show profile I've had this great copywriting/proofreading contract job for several months now--kind of boring, but great pay. Now it is drawing to a close, so when the client asked if I'd be interested in a full-time position, I said "sure." They asked what my desired salary would be, and I named a figure that I thought was fair. They said that was "within their range." Today, I was told that they definitely want to hire me. I'd be doing more work and taking on additional responsibilities...but for the same pay. And here's the kicker: Right now, I only work part-time. They want to pay me the same amount of money (actually, $52 less a week, or about $2,700 less a year) for full-time! I was shocked. I mean, I knew they wouldn't pay me double what I had been making, but this is way less than what I had asked for. And when I mentioned the fact that the amount was close to what they were paying me now, so would it be possible to remain part-time, they said no, they wanted someone full-time. I am going to try to negotiate, but I've already been told that my desired salary is out of the question. They say they have good health benefits, but that does me no good, because I have my own insurance, and with my past health history, I am never going to rely on an employer for insurance again. Anyway, I just wanted to vent. I think I have to take the job, because it's not terrible pay. It just seems so unfair to have to work twice as many hours for it. Well, I guess my cushy gig couldn't last forever. ------ www.adventuresofastera.blogspot.com |
| KC4 | Posted – 10/18/2007 7:35:35 PM | show profile Wait - so is it a flat rate you're getting paid or per hour, etc.? If you want to negotiate, I would argue that your going full-time would mean you wouldn't have time for any other clients you may have, ie lost income. |
| Astera | Posted – 10/18/2007 8:06:26 PM | show profile Right now, I'm being paid by the hour. I am only there for four hours a day. If I were to go full-time, I would be paid a salary. But the salary they are offering works out to about half my current hourly rate. Does that make sense? So essentially, by going full-time, I'll be making slightly less per week than I now make on a part-time basis. But maybe the whole point is moot, since they no longer want someone part-time...they only want full-time. My schedule was so great before because I was able to take on other paying projects. Plus, I had the tme to spend on my own novel. I've been getting very encouraging feedback on it through MediaBistro's online Chick Lit class, so it was nice to have the afternoons to work on it. I am going to try to negotiate tomorrow, but their big selling point is health benefits, which are of no use to me. |
| WritingSoul | Posted – 10/18/2007 8:20:01 PM | show profile | email poster Can you at least come back to them with a slightly higher figure, or at least negotiate for oh, I dunno, 8 weeks vacation time (that was a random number). And note that insurance is not applicable here. I was once offered less money than what I asked for, but was able to negotiate vacation time. |
| westsidestory | Posted – 10/18/2007 8:39:56 PM | show profile I think you are right to balk, especially if the "full time" rate equates to half of your "half-time" rate. As you can point to them, the benefits are not of interest to you. When you go in, try to look at all of this from the organization's point of view. They clearly want your services and are impressed with your work. What they don't understand is why a freelancer wouldn't drop everything and jump up and down to be offered a salary job. This is only because they are salary people themselves. It will do no good to point out that your free time is worth more than they're offering. (they'll only be jealous.) Instead, say, "well, since the numbers you are offering dont' really make sense for my situation, why don't you just have me in for 8 hours a day at my usual rate? You will be saving money by not paying me any benefits, which surely add at least 30% if not more to the cost of having me full time. " Go in with an attitude that A) you enjoy working for them and want to continue; and B) THEY will actually benefit by keeping you on as a freelancer with longer hours, rather than signing you on as a benefits-laden employee. In the best of worlds, they will tell you they can't afford you at 8 hours at your regular rate. So, offer them a few more hours per day or per week, to help them get the work done. I'm betting they'll jump at it once you give them time to consider their own numbers....good luck! |
| Marie | Posted – 10/18/2007 11:01:02 PM | show profile You have to negotiate. Don't mention the money you'll lose from not having other clients--they don't care about that. Just settle on a figure that makes sense. They obviously want you, so you have some leverage. And for god's sake, ask how much they deduct from your paycheck for these wonderful health benefits that you don't even need (what they're touting as a big benefit, might not be that great; I actually had better health insurance as a freelancer than I have a s a staff person). You don't sound happy about what they're proposing. And if you don't need the benefits (I believe if it weren't for health insurance, no one would choose to be staff), just stay a freelancer, either there or somewhere else. Feeling as you do, I wouldn't accept this offer as is. You sound like someone who feels backed into a wall. Not good. |
| Astera | Posted – 10/19/2007 1:28:33 AM | show profile I do feel backed into a well, but I also feel sort of ungrateful. I mean, there are plenty of people out there who are struggling to find work, so at least I have this opportunity. Granted, it is pretty boring, but is there anyone out there who really, truly likes his or her job? The problem is that I need money and I don't have any other freelance projects lined up right now. I had one, but it fell apart. I am going to negotiate as best I can, but I am afraid that even though it galls me in the extreme, I am going to have to take this full-time job without getting paid. Essentially, my hourly rate is getting cut from $55 to $26. Ouch. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 10/19/2007 2:43:06 AM | show profile What is the going rate for a full-time what-you're-doing in your area? If it's closer to $30 than to $55 -- then you'll probably have to give up the rate unless you pick up other temp clients. A lot of times there is a difference between tempish and FT because temps/freelancers need to pay their own overhead. Half is a big drop, but if the rate is in line with area pay, that's something to consider unless you can easily freelance for others. Have you surveyed to see what other people doing that make in your area? Be a good place to start. I have to say that in my area, $25+ an hour is very good money for that FT work -- not that it isn't worth much more. I have a client I do some casual copy editing for. My hourly rate at home (all convenience for me) is lower than when I go in -- by about a third. When I go to the site, I charge for the full day, regardless if they send me home early. But I happen to know that if they hired me for on site (which they've hinted at and I've balked at) they would likely pay me less still. |
| westsidestory | Posted – 10/19/2007 10:37:22 AM | show profile I'd say give yourself a time out and ask them to give you a while to think about it. Clearly, you are not thrilled to be going full time with these people. Don't jump too fast out of fear. You got this freelance gig, you will get others - just because you dropped one and might lose this one doesn't mean your career is at a standstill. Besides, you've said this job is boring - signing up with them means you'll be putting yourself out of the running for better gigs (freelance or permanent) for a time. And bottom line, they are asking you to cut your rate by half. Think about asking them how many hours they really need, then take some time to figure out a reasonable hourly rate that is somewhere say 75 percent - in other words, your counter offer is to give them a "volume discount" Finally, please, drop that "gratitude" stuff. Let me assure you, if they thought they could get someone cheaper, they would hire that person. That's why their first move is to get you to be that "cheaper person." Be flexible in providing alternatives to keep you freelance, but don't be a wimp. You'll regret it later, when you wake up in the dark every morning with agida to go to a job you've decided you really hate. |
| westsidestory | Posted – 10/19/2007 10:42:57 AM | show profile Oh, ps. I really, really like my job. I've been freelance for most of the past 25 years - and I am in publishing as you are. I love the clients I have right now (three book companies). Suggestion: take a look at THE FOUR HOUR WORK WEEK book. A lot of it's off the wall, but there is some good stuff about maintaining a virtual business that allows you free time and improves your cash flow. |
| foodlit | Posted – 10/19/2007 11:05:14 AM | show profile Well, one thing to consider is that you generally do take an hourly cut when you go from freelance/contract work to perm. That is expected unfortunately. What bothers me about your comment though is that it doesn't seem as though you really even like this job. There are plenty of people who do like their jobs. I love what I do. I would try to negotiate somehow, as it does sound like they want you...but do you want them? Maybe your best option is to not take this job? Good luck with whatever you decide to do. Pam |
| Mag Girl | Posted – 10/19/2007 11:19:02 AM | show profile When you do try to negotiate, though, the tax benefits of going full-time cancels out some pay loss though. But it really sounds as if you will be miserable doing this full-time. |
| Cyrus | Posted – 10/19/2007 11:33:28 AM | show profile To add a bit of a different perspective, today's a confusing time because although we're being told how rosy things are all the time, people are also working harder than I think they ever were before. Also, you don't really see the security that you used to during good economic periods. I bring this up to say that employers realize this and are fairly confident in their ability to get more, both out of present employees and future hires. One alternative is to continue your freelance enterprise, although I'd brand it as a business and aggressively market it. Also, specialize and showcase yourself differently than everybody else. That will lessen the number of competitors you have, which will have obvious benefits. ------ Cyrus Afzali Astoria Communications www.astoriacomm.com |
| flight risk | Posted – 10/19/2007 3:02:57 PM | show profile I don't think this is at all uncommon. I have friends who were offered full time positions. But they had risen in contract rate over the years and surpassed the highest in-house tier. Of course, they were at least given the option of continuing on doing freelance. Do you have to take on this job? If they're not going to be meet your salary requirements and you're willing to give up freelancing, perhaps you can find another job that would pay what you want. |
| astrahook | Posted – 10/19/2007 3:28:20 PM | show profile cost of employment...playing devil's advocate, assuming on a contract you were being paid on a 1099 vs w2 as an employee- the employer is on the hook for fica, etc.. that probably cost them about 15% of whatever they are paying you. Also, while health insurance is of no interest to you, maybe there are things like 401k etc.? Very hard to compare contract to full time - while there really is no such thing as job security these days, there is something to be said for not having to worry about getting a new contract or another contract renewed etc... Lastly, we have this whole caplitalism free market thing going on - what you think you are worth and what the market bears maybe two different things (thats not an attack on you). I guess you have to ask yourself, if you tell them no, how quickly will they have that role filled with someone qualified who will do the job at the salary they have in mind? |
| kmg | Posted – 10/19/2007 4:32:48 PM | show profile You will have to decide if this is really a job to which you want to commit (even if just for the money). One thing not mentioned here yet is to negotiate time. I realize you said they need someone full-time, but possibly you could negotiate to work 30 hours for what they want to pay you for 40 hours a week, or possibly 32 hours? That would leave you some extra time to pick up some freelance gigs on the side. It is just something to consider. |
| fourfold | Posted – 10/19/2007 4:33:07 PM | show profile Yeah, I experienced the same thing when I converted from freelance to full-time in my present job. My salary works out to less than my former hourly rate because, my employer argued, they were including some pretty stellar benefits in the package. I took it, but now, a year later, I'm leaving. One thing to think about when you go to full-time is that when you take a salaried position, they think they own you. As a freelancer, I would let my client know whether or not I was available for a certain time period. If I wasn't, no big deal. But now I'm working overtime and weekends for no extra compensation. And we are EXTREMELY understaffed. No wonder they wanted to lock me in at a salaried rate. Weigh the variables and see if they make sense. Beside health insurance, are there other benefits they're offering you? Less pay for more work has to have some type of incentive thrown in or it just doesn't make sense. |
| Astera | Posted – 10/19/2007 5:12:55 PM | show profile Thanks for all of your responses. I did get them to come up in price some more, so I am going to take this weekend and think about my options. BTW, this is not a publishing company. I am a copywriter/proofreader in the marketing department of a big corporation, which is why it's kind of boring. But it's also why the pay is better. Right now, I am thinking that I might take the job for the time being and try and save up some money and work on my personal pet project on the side. I know I am happier as a freelancer, but I may have to suck it up for a while for financial reasons. It makes me nervous not to have any freelance projects in the pipeline right now, so taking this job will at least provide a little security. I know that's not the best attitude to start a new job with, but honestly, the industry that this company is in has taken some pretty hard knocks, so there's no guarantee that the company will even be around for the long haul. Anyway, I just have to focus on the fact that it will be nice not to have to worry about where my next paycheck is coming from for a while. And the people I work with are nice, too...there is something to be said for that! |
| seeattleme | Posted – 10/19/2007 8:05:16 PM | show profile I would take the job. Negotiate for more vacation or personal days, including, up front, your birthday, the week between Xmas and New Years (if applicable), Christmas and New Years eve, (or weeks applicable if you are another religion, I just don't know what those are). Negotiating isn't effective in THIS job market. AOL just laid off 2,000 prople and I'm sure any one of them would take this job. Try to ask for about 5,000$ more than they are offering. But I would take it. |
| westsidestory | Posted – 10/19/2007 10:21:43 PM | show profile Astera, I'm glad you were able to negotiate "up" in the salary. To straddle the divide between "dont' know where next paycheck is coming from" and "want to work on my own projects" I would say the next step would be to come back with the previous poster's advice - ask for more personal time, so you can explore job paths that are more in tune with what you really want out of life. I really hate when people tell me they have to "suck it up" -- unless you've got children or frail relatives to care for, there is really no good reason to aim for a soul-deadening job if your aspirations -- and your gut -- indicate happiness lies elsewhere. But good luck! And keeping pushing for more bennies! |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 10/20/2007 1:49:41 PM | show profile Well, beyond that, a four-hour a day you don't like can be tolerable because it frees you to do other things. An eight-hour a day job you don't like can be miserable. --What bothers me about your comment though is that it doesn't seem as though you really even like this job. There are plenty of people who do like their jobs. I love what I do.-- |
