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Topic: Copyeditors: is this semicolon correct?
| Author | Message |
| leprechaunsy | Posted – 11/15/2007 7:44:00 PM | show profile In the work I've been copyediting of late I've been seeing more and more sentences in which semicolons precede "and" and "buts" ... "She applied for the show herself; but when she was told she'd need a partner, she called her brother." Or: "Susie was furious with her mother and her mother's aunt, Mary, a bookkeeper; and she drove down to Florida by herself." (the first one's verbatim; the second one is just one I slapped together to illustrate the point) Why wouldn't you just use a comma? And is it ever permissible to use a semicolon before "but" or "and"? It's a usage that seems new to me. |
| jkdscribe | Posted – 11/15/2007 11:13:53 PM | show profile I would say it is as permissable as beginning a sentence with 'and' or 'but.' If it is an independent clause (those are) then yes. I'd say it's more a matter of ear than anything. |
| lindab142 | Posted – 11/16/2007 12:25:01 AM | show profile | email poster Semicolon & Copyediting Freelance Work People are overusing or misusing punctuation these days. However, the semicolon is used to separate clauses and thoughts. General rules: Use a semicolon before the words "however", "but" and "and". I could use some freelance copyediting work. Anyone know of any? |
| writesonwater | Posted – 11/16/2007 12:37:03 AM | show profile I prefer a comma in both instances, but I allow room for someone else's opinion. A semi-colon would look weird up in the above sentence. |
| Astera | Posted – 11/16/2007 1:07:25 AM | show profile I think a comma is correct in both of the instances you cited. I always thought that a semicolon replaced a conjunction: "She applied for the show herself; when she was told she'd need a partner, she called her brother." In fact, according to AP style, a semicolon is used "when a coordinating conjunction such as and, but or for is not present: The package was due last week; it arrived today." By that standard, both of your examples are using semicolons incorrectly. A semicolon should not be used before "but" or "and." I am surprised that people think using a semicolon could be correct in these instances. Good grammar is based on rules, not "opinion." ------ www.adventuresofastera.blogspot.com |
| m.m.m. | Posted – 11/16/2007 12:35:18 PM | show profile I started to type a response to this post, but before I posted it I read what was written by Astera, who said it all perfectly. So....ditto to what Astera said! |
| writerandeditor | Posted – 11/16/2007 12:43:24 PM | show profile A semi-colon replaces the conjunctions for, and, nor, but, or, yor. So, no, that is not correct. |
| leisenkraft1 | Posted – 11/16/2007 2:10:14 PM | show profile at this point, you don't need anyone else to tell you they're both wrong. i'm wondering, though, why you even needed to ask anyone's opinion. That's a little scary. |
| rulebook | Posted – 11/16/2007 3:12:07 PM | show profile Not to heap on the bitchiness, but to even wonder if either of those sentences are grammatically correct is indeed scary. |
| Mr. Biggles | Posted – 11/16/2007 3:19:33 PM | show profile To me this usage seems not so much wrong as superfluous, but I believe it's fairly common in British writing. |
| jkaufman | Posted – 11/16/2007 4:17:27 PM | show profile I defend asking the question! Once you start seeing the same error over and over--and I see these things in edited works, as a proofreader--you have to wonder "am I crazy? isn't this wrong?" |
| writerandeditor | Posted – 11/16/2007 4:23:28 PM | show profile Ugh -- not "yor." I meant "yet." |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 11/16/2007 4:42:40 PM | show profile The purpose of a semicolon is to create a stop to eliminate confusion. Typically, you don't use it before a conjunction, but there are times you do. A semicolon can be used to separate independent clauses that are joined by coordinating conjunctions when the clauses have internal commas that might lead to misreading. Wikipedia, for instance, gives this example: "After the game, I won a red beanie baby, four edible ingots, and a certificate of excellence; but when the storm came, I lost it all in a torrent of sleet, snow, and profanity." |
| chucho | Posted – 11/16/2007 5:02:17 PM | show profile I'm with Astera. You do not use a semicolon before "but", "however" or "and". Using it instead of a conjunction is a good benchmark. Basically, what comes before and what comes after should be able to stand alone as their own sentences. Which is why I agree with Kurt Vonnegut: it's the most useless punctuation mark in the English language. It is, after all, literally superfluous and used for such a vague notion as "it sounds better to use it" or "it helps the rhythm of the prose" and yaddah yaddah. |
| chucho | Posted – 11/16/2007 5:08:01 PM | show profile DISCLAIMER: The semicolon is very good for listing things, especially if you have several list items that themselves contain dependent clauses separated by commas. Two examples where semicolons are good for listing: I went to the store and purchased three cans of tomatoes, because my wife asked me to buy them; a loaf of bread, because the loaf we have at home is stale; and two sticks of butter, which are for the cookies. ALSO good use of semicolon: The best pieces of advice are: #1.) Don't make mistakes. Make news mistakes; #2.) Get it first, but get it right; and #3.) Expediency is second only to accuracy. Though I suppose (to go back to the original question about semicolon use) you could also write #1 like this: "Don't make mistakes; make new mistakes." |
| chucho | Posted – 11/16/2007 5:11:43 PM | show profile oops, just read dribble . . . that the same point: when there are a lot of commas and clauses in a sentence (usually when you're listing things) it's good to use semicolons to make the sentence easier to comprehend and to keep sub-sets grouped. |
| Village Gal | Posted – 11/16/2007 5:14:07 PM | show profile to pile on here.. You do not use the semicolon to separate two sentences if there is a conjunction; the semicolon replaces it. One thing no one mentioned is that when the mark is used this way, the two sentences should be related. |
| slink | Posted – 11/17/2007 2:25:40 PM | show profile The semicolon is incorrect. |
| jkdscribe | Posted – 11/17/2007 9:22:34 PM | show profile If you're going with straight AP style, then yes, follow Astera's advice. Beyond that, it depends on how you want it to read. If you're not restricted to a particular style, then write it how you want. It's permissable to do anything...but keep in mind there is a reason why you rarely see a semicolon before a conjunction. |
| leprechaunsy | Posted – 11/18/2007 9:45:57 PM | show profile Hey! Don't question my skills. As I said, I did not believe the use was correct. I would never use a semicolon in these situations. However, I'm copyediting someone else, and I would like to be sure that the semicolon is STILL wrong in this instance. As we all know, language is constantly evolving. And all you haters should see CMS 6.59 (the third entry in "Use of a semicolon": 6.59 Before a conjunction An independent clause introduced by a conjunction may be preceded by a semicolon, especially when the independent clause has internal punctuation. For the more common use of a comma with conjunctions, see 6.32. Frobisher had always assured his grandson that the house would be his; yet there was no provision for this bequest in his will. Maria had determined to question the ambassador; but bodyguards surrounding him, as well as the presence of dancing girls, prevented him from noticing her. |
| Rulebook2 | Posted – 11/18/2007 9:57:57 PM | show profile Seems like I was out of my depth here. Apologies. |
| leprechaunsy | Posted – 11/18/2007 11:40:16 PM | show profile Thanks for your answers. For the most part, it seems like everyone agrees ... |
| Homer | Posted – 11/19/2007 3:24:06 PM | show profile I knew both those examples of semi-colon abuse were wrong, but it's still not wrong to ask. I've had arguments with people over punctuation usage that was drummed into me as correct, yet they insist otherwise. To wit: The first word after a colon should be upper-case if it's a full and complete sentence, lower-case if it's a phrase; never use a hyphen with "ly" words, i.e., badly written sentence (as the "ly" takes the place of the hyphen); omit the "ly" in the phrase more important, as the more takes the place of the ly; and whether semi-colons can be used to separate a list. We should get a regular-running thread like this so the real experts can weigh in and correct us. Bad grammar and punctuation is rampant. I mean, look at the NYT's stubborn refusal to lose the apostrophe in dates, i.e., the 1990's. |
