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Topic: Age Discrimination
| Author | Message |
| mentat | Posted – 11/24/2007 10:44:19 PM | show profile | email poster I am beginning to suspect that hiring managers practice disguised age discrimination by not calling applicants who they perceive as being "too experienced"--that is, who have more experience than they do and therefore are likely older than them. I have an enormous amount of experience and am applying for freelance jobs and suspect that based on the dates on my resume (I started while still in college) am being passed over for less experienced applicants perceived as being "more manageable." I have freelanced for several editors who were younger than me (they in their 20s and I in my 30s) and they seemed uncomfortable with the situation while I had no problem with it. (It seemed they were wondering why anyone my age would choose such an uncertain and hapahazard route--even though I have traveled extensively around the world and would never have been able to do so had I been chained to a desk full time.) I am not in New York, where the entire industry is so vast and diverse that this sort of thing is less problematic. I think in other cities people just aren't used to encountering people on less traditional career paths and still hold judgments and stereotypes of those they view as deviant. Has anyone had experience with this issue? |
| Marie | Posted – 11/24/2007 11:49:13 PM | show profile Age discrimination certainly exists (it's usually very subtle and hard to prove), but I've rarely found it in freelance positions. In those cases, most editors just want somebody really good who's going to take work off their hands (if you're working at home, you can have long relationships with editors and never even meet them, so they never really know how old you are, or much else about you, unless you volunteer it). I would suggest removing the dates from your degrees, and perhaps even eliminating some of your early jobs. It's fine to do this. Your resume is a marketing tool, not a document to be defended in a court of law. Don't fabricate jobs, but you certainly can cut a few early ones. That way your age remains ambiguous. I have worked for many people younger than I am, and neither I nor as far as I can sense they have ever had a problem with it. Everyone just kind of focuses on the work. There's kind of a backlash where I am now. They're embracing the concept that it's good to hire people who know what they're doing. All recent hires have been over 45. Maybe they're heading for a reverse discrimination case. All the bosses are younger. It's interesting. |
| ManhattanMatt | Posted – 11/25/2007 1:15:32 PM | show profile How can you be an editor ... ... in your 20s??? |
| SPF 30 | Posted – 11/25/2007 8:35:20 PM | show profile Manhattan Matt, are you kidding? It's difficult to tell. |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 11/25/2007 9:07:11 PM | show profile I've been a full-time freelancing for 20 years, and I work for editors who are younger than me, though they probably don't know it. For one thing, I never provide a resume when going for freelance gigs. I just use a credit sheet. I hardly meet any of my clients face-to-face, since I don't look for work based on geography and my clients are spread throughout the U.S. I can see how someone going for staff positions would face age discrimmination, but this shouldn't be a problem with freelance gigs. |
| questoo1 | Posted – 11/25/2007 9:08:02 PM | show profile I don't think he was joking. He is asking a legitimate question...how many magazines have editors (read: top of masthead) in their 20's? |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 11/25/2007 9:09:14 PM | show profile I've been a full-time freelancing for 20 years, and I work for editors who are younger than me, though they probably don't know it. For one thing, I never provide a resume when going for freelance gigs. I just use a credit sheet. I hardly meet any of my clients face-to-face, since I don't look for work based on geography and my clients are spread throughout the U.S. I can see how someone going for staff positions would face age discrimmination, but this shouldn't be a problem with freelance gigs. |
| PluckyPane | Posted – 11/26/2007 12:35:59 PM | show profile | email poster Editors in their 20s Matt: I've been an editor (now managing editor at 32) since I'm 27. I replaced my boss who was 2 years younger than I when I became editor. I work for a small publication, so I moved up quickly by learning anything and everything that happens with my publications. BTW, 3 years prior to entering the publishing world at 25, I was workiing in corporate marketing and communications. |
| Mirage | Posted – 11/26/2007 2:42:56 PM | show profile Editors in their 20s Matt, I was a full editor at 25. Started working in publishing at 20 and worked my way up...probably the same as the others on there. |
| mentat | Posted – 11/26/2007 7:59:10 PM | show profile I'm talking about in-house freelance editing, not freelance writing. When freelance copy-editing or researching, you work closely with the copy and research chiefs. I found that in New York people don't care about superficials, but in some cities they do seem to. People jump to stupid conclusions, like "If they're older they might be more set in their ways, more difficult to work with," or some other such B.S. And sometimes people just like the vibe of working with people their own age. I was an editor in my 20s. I started in college, so it wasn't that hard. I freelance occasionally (copy and research, mostly) so as not to have to be tied down to a full-time job. But outside New York, I'm afraid, it's viewed as flighty "job hopping" rather than a legitimate career path. At my last assignment, the copy chief, 25, seemed freaked out when I told her I've been freelancing for years. Her expression said, "How could anyone LIVE like that??? Freelancing is what you do while you're LOOKING for something permanent, like temping!" Lots of closed minds outside New York, I'm afraid. (Spoken like a true New Yorker.) |
| reporterwriter | Posted – 11/26/2007 9:25:07 PM | show profile OK, I'll float this one past you: It's possible, even slightly, that it has more to do with your personal vibe than with your age. Give your resume a critical review. Client-focused resumes work so much more effectively than "I"-based and "me"-based resumes for freelance work. Make sure yours emphasizes what you can do for the client instead of how many years you've worked, how many awards you've won, how many fellowships you've had, how many star clients you've snagged, yadda yadda. Face-to-face, emphasize collaboration, cooperation and competence overall, nothing else. Simply perform. Your great performance will call attention to itself; you won't have to toot. (I truly believe that when a person thinks others "seem uncomfortable," it reflects feeling uncomfortable themselves and acting on it.) Also, make sure you're applying to jobs that aren't entry level. When places specify entry level, they mean it. As well, be sure you're not applying to startups, which are notoriously unwilling to pay for experience. You will have the greatest success by applying to jobs with established clients looking for people with your level of qualification. I work regularly with editors who are 10-30 years younger (as years pass, it gets tough to find them older!). I don't pick up age discrimination or discomfort at all from them, and they're all outside New York City. |
| Letterbox | Posted – 11/26/2007 10:49:46 PM | show profile You say you freelance occassionally? What do you do the rest of the time? Being overqualified is a notable issue. If you have leagues more experience than the job requires or what the other candidates offer. They probably think you'll get bored and leave. Especially if 1040 is all you've ever done. |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 11/27/2007 2:38:31 AM | show profile You may face some issues: A lot of people are uncomfortable hiring underlings who are more experienced or older than them. You might consider changing dates on your resume, if you look young enough to get away with it. Or going after corporate work rather than editorial work, which tends to skew younger. |
| ManhattanMatt | Posted – 11/27/2007 4:18:50 AM | show profile Soooo .... ... why would a publisher even WANT to hire an inexperienced 20-something as an editor? Aren't editors supposed to be seasoned writers who've reached the top of their game and are now "proofing", approving, and sometimes improving upon the work of other writers? |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 11/27/2007 4:49:03 AM | show profile Most magazine people have editing jobs in their 20s. You can be an editor in your 20s and have 5 or 8 years of experience. And, really, I am not sure if editing is the type of job where 20 years experience is exponentially better than 5 years experience. But magazines like younger editors for the obvious reason -- they tend to be cheaper. It's also a fallacy that editors are more experienced that the writers. In many cases, writers are freelancers who are much more experienced that the people to whom they sell their services. As a long-time freelance writer, I have often worked for young editors who were pretty clueless. --Soooo .... ... why would a publisher even WANT to hire an inexperienced 20-something as an editor? Aren't editors supposed to be seasoned writers who've reached the top of their game and are now "proofing", approving, and sometimes improving upon the work of other writers?-- |
| InsomniacNOT | Posted – 11/27/2007 7:57:18 AM | show profile Not all editors are former writers just as not all producers are former on-camera reporters. The skill sets are different if related. FYI, the Brits used to (and maybe they still do) start journos out as "subs" or sub-editors and then promote them to reporters. |
| gwen55_us | Posted – 11/27/2007 6:51:38 PM | show profile Age Discrimination I have run up against this, but not as a freelancer. I'm a staffer, and 98 percent of the employees in this company are in the 25-35 range. ALL the top editors are in their 30s tops. I am in my 50s and work as a copy editor. The younger editors seem to shy away from me, as in, if I'm not of their generation, I can't possibly relate to their lives. I edit their copy, though, and most times, it stinks! I could do better, but I don't get the chance. |
| Metro Writer | Posted – 11/28/2007 9:48:03 AM | show profile People are going off on tangents. The issue is age discrimination. It certainly exists, especially in the corporate world. Often it has to do with the fact that companies cut costs and want to lay off the people who earn the most (except for the CEOs who can never earn enough money) and who cost the most in health insurance. There is additional prejudice by many young and even middle-aged people towards older people. It's mindboggling that my manager at a newspaper still thinks that older people aren't computer literate (yet she blames the Internet) for our decreasing readership. Of course, if you gear the features to the 20somethings, those over 60 probably won't read it and will get their national and international news elsewhere. |
| mentat | Posted – 11/29/2007 10:19:28 PM | show profile | email poster Biggest problem is my most relevant/impressive credentials are the oldest, since I quit full-time for freelancing a while back. So my highest-ranking positions were the earliest (I landed some great jobs very early on--kind of a wunderkind). I really think that tweaking the dates wouldn't be the biggest crime in the world, since I certainly did perform all of the functions described, just at an earlier date than I'll reveal. I mean, hell, if they're going to subconsciously discriminate, haven't I the right to counter with some less-than-orthodox measures of my own? For freelance positions, why would the dates matter that much? They certainly won't conduct a thorough background search. All's fair in the current climate, wouldn't you say? |
| Marie | Posted – 11/30/2007 12:54:31 AM | show profile Do a functional resume, where you emphasize skills and experience, or some kind of hybrid between a functional and chrono resume. There's a zillion books on how to do these kinds of resumes. Go sit in your local Barnes and Noble or Borders or library. If you're going only for freelance, an extremely detailed cover letter describing your relevant experience, which would not have dates, would also work. Don't worry so much about what you think people think about your age and experience. Just sell your skills. If you're going for freelance spots, that's all they care about. |
| katestarrr | Posted – 11/30/2007 1:18:06 PM | show profile Some people in their 20s don't want to work with some older people because of the things that they learn about their bosses while they are lowly interns: 1. Older people don't want to learn anything. When I was an intern, people would wait hours and maybe a day until I was available to scan something for them. I didn't mind doing it, but logically, why wait so long when all you had to do was take 5 minutes and scan it yourself? Turns out, no one knew (or wanted to learn how) to operate a scanner. Or PowerPoint. Or how to call for a messenger. I could go on. There was a post about InDesign vs. Quark somewhere here. One person said something like they'll stick with one program until their company makes them switch. Learning new programs is fun for me. 2. Sometimes I do get a bad vibe from people older than me. Its something they probably aren't conscious of. For example, they speak differently to me-even if they're not trying to be rude, they raise the pitch of their voices -imagine how you talk to a cute puppy or toddler, but not quite that bad- even when they're asking me to do something that they don't know how to do. |
| nandy | Posted – 11/30/2007 2:04:21 PM | show profile katestarr [quote] 1. Older people don't want to learn anything. When I was an intern, people would wait hours and maybe a day until I was available to scan something for them. I didn't mind doing it, but logically, why wait so long when all you had to do was take 5 minutes and scan it yourself? Turns out, no one knew (or wanted to learn how) to operate a scanner. Or PowerPoint. Or how to call for a messenger. I could go on. There was a post about InDesign vs. Quark somewhere here. One person said something like they'll stick with one program until their company makes them switch. Learning new programs is fun for me. [end qoute] The point not made in that comment about InDesign vs Quark is that when you do get very comfortbale in a program, your productivity can take a dive when a new one is suddenly substituted for the old AND one does not always have the opportunity to say WHEN the substitution occurs. I've been in places when it hits at the WORST possible time...when I'm eyebrow deep in work that has to go to the printer. If the companies would let the workers make the switch when their workload can bear the down time, then most people would not fear a new program. But since that is not the case, most people just want to stay with the tried-and-true so they can keep their head above water. It has ntohing to do with age. The people who couldn't make the transition from rubber cement and magic markers were the real ones you should have been worried about...not someone who prefers Quark to InDesign. Calling for messengers? Know how to do it, but is it a good way to spend my $65,000 salary vs your intern salary of $20,000? |
| katestarrr | Posted – 11/30/2007 3:16:11 PM | show profile [quote] ...when you do get very comfortbale in a program, your productivity can take a dive when a new one is suddenly substituted [end quote] That doesn't happen with me, nor does it happen with the vast majority of the people that I graduated with. The fact that declining productivity is a given in these situations with you is why some people prefer to hire younger. We're not 'comfortable'. We're used to change. Things change, and they always will. [quote] ...is it a good way to spend my $65,000 salary vs your intern salary of $20,000? [end quote] So a better way to spend your $65K salary is to wait for the $20K (ha-if we even made half of that) intern to get back from lunch? |
| katestarrr | Posted – 11/30/2007 4:37:36 PM | show profile ooooooooh, i get it.. you're the person that wouldn't switch to Quark until someone made you. i found the post. for all who are keeping up, here is nandy's post: "I'm not indifferent to the synchronicity between the Creative Suite programs, but I've been working in Quark for a long time and I work very quickly and efficiently in it, even going back and forth to PhotoShop or Illustrator for little fixes. I've found 6.5 to be relatively bug-free. It hasn't caused any crashes that I can remember in months. I have InDesign on my work and home computers, so when and if the changeover is made at my employer I'll be able to retrain for it and practice at home. But to get through the fast-paced work I have on my desk right now, I'll stick with the program I know." This is the part that people don't want to hear: "I'll stick with the program I know." Maybe you won't say it at an interview, but if thats what you're thinking...people will pick it up. You guys give us 'kids' advice that we need and often don't take, and I'm giving you some of the same kind now...Its like that booger hanging out of your nose...its hard to find someone to tell you its there. I'm telling you now that you have a booger hanging out of your left nostril. |
| Mirage | Posted – 11/30/2007 4:55:57 PM | show profile Although it does seem to occur most often in those who are older, I don't think that resistance to change is necessarily a symptom of age. We just did a major porogram changeover at my company, and the majority of my colleagues now come to two of us for help: me, more than 20 years their junior, and a 50-year-old editor who adapts to new programs well. I've also seen interns and ed assts learn new programs in a half-assed way because they just aren't interested. They approach change the same way their "stodgy" 50- and 60-year-old bosses do: simply because they have to, not because they like it. |
