| Back to Home > Bulletin Board > Media Issues > Topic: Age Discrimination |
Topic: Age Discrimination
| Author | Message |
| Letterbox | Posted – 11/30/2007 6:10:14 PM | show profile I've been using all the major graphics software packages for years so had no problem switching from Quark to InDesign over time. But i wouldn't say it would be a seamless transition for anybody considering the complexity of both. Especially if you had to turn on a dime. The two programs have some pretty intrinsic differences that you have to learn by just working on it. Anybody that says there's not productivity loss would be exagerating. The fact that you don't know all the quick keys probably slows workflow down quite a bit. |
| nandy | Posted – 11/30/2007 10:11:52 PM | show profile My dear katestarr I made the change to computers with ease and grace...and a lot of enthusiasm, probably before you were in grade school. I love using a computer for my work for many different reasons. Not wanting to switch has NOTHING to do with not wanting to learn a new program. I do that all the time. It has nothing to do with age. I'm quite able to absorb the intricacies of InDesign. It has to do with other things like the powers-that-be not being flexible or adjusting the schedules that were approved BEFORE the decision to implement the change was made. We had this happen with several system upgrades. It always happens at a time that's convenient for the suits upstairs, NOT the people in production. But we're the ones who have to work the extra hours to make up the lost time. And while you are calling the messenger, I'm whipping out three book cover designs. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 12/1/2007 12:17:54 AM | show profile At mid-40s, I am "older." I have several editors that I freelance write (and for some I edit) for who are in their 20s. They seem to appreciate me being an "old pro" -- commenting on how they can count on my work and my long-honed work ethic, compared to less experienced writers. One asks me for advice frequently, and having been in her shoes in the past, I guess I'm a kind of mentor for her. A great publication is one that welcomes experience -- that's a kind of professionalism all are not endowed with. On my resume (which I don't give for freelance work unless asked, preferring a good cover letter and clips) I trim off my old experience, even though it is technically some of my best. I don't want to look like a "dinosaur." I don't know if I'd change dates -- the problem with one of those is you have to keep track of it. And then there's the "Jim Braun was editor there then -- how is old Jim?" deal. Belinda's point about vibe is well-taken. Not saying you do this, but if you focus on your "extensive experience" and many awards and seasoned blablabla, how much better you are because you're older and wiser, that could intimidate a younger editor, make him think you're going to try to pull rank or not be good at taking direction, think you know it all, etc. There are definitely many editors who chose that stream and have not ever had a desire to write. While many people in their 50s and 60s embrace technology, there are those AT EVERY AGE who don't learn new technology well. They do need to work on it more. But I get where Nandy's coming from about being comfortable in one design program. I just bought Quark -- I'm comfortable with it. It's my computer, I can use what I want, fine. Done. If I have to learn InDesign, I'll do it -- if I have to. Also, on the date fudging -- if they check, the one thing employers can confirm is dates you worked there -- not salary, or how you did. That's what I heard, anyway. It's a mistake of youth to lump older people and bosses together into the same category. And resenting senior people for asking you to do menial things may be another. The condescension vibe goes both ways -- younger snots can do the same thing as old dragons. One of the most irritating editors I ever worked with was a bitchy younger woman who said everything she said to me as if I was retarded. She was odd. |
| katestarrr | Posted – 12/1/2007 9:34:50 AM | show profile Marie- I didn?t mean to say that all older people have a hard time learning and that all younger people are good at it, just that for the most part this is the case. My bosses now are great, and twice my age. Letterbox- There is productivity loss, but a lot less with most younger people. My school didn?t offer classes with Quark, which I needed to know for my first internship. I left off the ?computer programs? part on my resume hoping that it would be less noticeable to HR that I didn?t know Quark. Stupid decision or not, I got hired and was doing work in Quark the second day. I taught myself, and never missed a deadline. nandy- I think I made you too mad about the Quark/InDesign thing for it to be worth talking to you anymore, but? I made the transition to computers before I was in grade school. Seriously. My first email address was a reference to the ?The Baby-sitters? Club? books, which is what I was reading at the time. It is also a scientific fact that it becomes harder to learn the older you get. I can?t learn fluent Spanish, but I could twenty years ago. I also don?t know what you specifically are doing because I don?t know you, but my bosses could not finish a cover design because they needed me to scan an image that was going to go on it. I also kind of doubt that you did anything with ease, grace, or enthusiasm seeing as how you talk about how annoying and difficult the transition was. writesonwater- I didn?t say that I resented anyone-as a matter of fact, I said that I didn?t mind scanning something. It just confuses me as to why they would waste so much time waiting for something that is so important, and can be completed in 5 minutes. It would have taken less time to ask the assistant (who taught me) how to use the scanner. |
| katestarrr | Posted – 12/1/2007 9:45:37 AM | show profile oops I meant Mirage, not Marie. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 12/1/2007 11:03:42 AM | show profile Kate, I wish you a long and happy life. Before you write people off because of the decades they've known, remember that in less than a blink of an eye you will be in your 40s and 50s and may find adapting to whatever new technologies there are then more of a challenge. At that point, it's possible your experience and wisdom will more than compensate for that. Let's hope the next generation will, at that point, look past YOUR greying hair (you can dye that) and your aging face (you can lift that) and your birth certificate. In the meantime, you might want to offer to develop an easy method for teaching scanning to co-workers. I'm sure you'll leave condescension out of the equation if you do. Good luck! |
| katestarrr | Posted – 12/1/2007 12:16:40 PM | show profile Oh, come on. I am not writing people off. I made specific mention of how I am not including everyone older than I in the same category. I said that my bosses in their 40s are great. I think that you are getting defensive, and aren't actually reading what I post here. We expect to work for people who are older than us. Because your generation told us to expect it. We follow what you say. We make competition for you by excepting jobs for $30,000/year and crappy (if any) benefits in one of the most expensive cities in the world because you tell us that it is expected. You tell us what to do, and then get mad when we do it. |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 12/1/2007 12:48:11 PM | show profile Age discrimination does indeed exist! I am in my early, early 50s and was just laid off in Oct. from a job I had for two years. Another guy who had been there for over 10 was also laid off. The remaining FT employees are one guy who's 41, another who's 25 and rest are 20-something interns. It was clear that the reason we were laid off was because we made too much money (I only made around $60K and the other guy made a little less than I did) and it was perceived by the goofball that was hired to run the dept. that we weren't as "tech savvy" as the younger folks were. When in fact, we were more so! That "goofball" had no clue what I did (print designer/art director) and was always trying to get me to tell him what projects I was working on day-by-day. It was shocking to the rest of the org. when we were laid off since everyone came to us directly for print/web projects, and not to the "goofball". Now there's no one to handle these requests and people are PO'd about it. (not my problem!) Because the dept. was mismanaged, WE were the ones that were let go...older and experienced employees. I've heard since that the work is just not getting done. The plan was to "outsource" our duties and that hasn't even happened. As far as I can tell, it was a kneejerk reaction to LO the highest paid and the most experienced. What's to happen now? A department of short-term interns take care of things...yeah, that's long-term thinking, isn't it? |
| DQ102 | Posted – 12/1/2007 1:20:50 PM | show profile This is an interesting thread. It went from a discussion of age discrimination to a battle pitting young vs. old. Everyone makes interesting points, and I can't help but think this would make for one heck of a Mediabistro panel discussion with perhaps a mediator who could ring out some useful insights from both sides about how we can all work together and learn from each other. I have been mentored by wonderful, older editors during my career, and I have also learned tons from younger editors and interns. |
| Marie | Posted – 12/1/2007 1:21:56 PM | show profile I think this technology issue is just another stupid stereotype about older people. The problem is, although I'm seeing less of it now, is that some younger people are just too insecure to manage people older than they are. This I have come across, even if the older hiree has no problem with the arrangement, and really just wants to work and do a good job. They're just not comfortable among older people. They want clones of themselves, although, again, I'm seeing less of this now. I work in a place that's pathological in every way except this one. Several recent hires have been in their 40s and 50s. The age range goes from about 23 to late 50s, but everyone catches on and works together and to some extent even socializes together at after work get togethers. The older people do have more -- and better -- journalism experience, and it shows in their editing. They're valued for what they bring to the stories. And they learn the tech stuff that's required for their jobs (none of it is that hard). This mix of ages is the best thing about the sick place. |
| nandy | Posted – 12/1/2007 2:03:11 PM | show profile KS, I never said it was difficult, only annoying because of the timing. The timing for any of our corporate changes have NOT been when my department would have chosen. And yes, I did them with grace and enthusiasm. In fact, I was the person most people came to with their questions about the new programs/systems. Training (other than a few hours in a conference room) was left to everyone to handle on the fly. And I guess, that's what I object to the most. The people who work under me (and they are all younger), bombarded me with productivity problems everyday to the detrement of my own productivity. It was not my lack of understand or facility of the program...but other's. Maturity has it's virtues. I can write a defense of my position without attacking someone by resorting to silly, immature analogies (like boogers). |
| nandy | Posted – 12/1/2007 2:17:01 PM | show profile The worst case of age discrimination that I've encountered has been whenever a company is "reorganized" they go for the jugular on people who make the most. And, simply because most companies hire younger people at low $, the skew was that mostly the older people were let go. I've had friends go through this just recently at the same company. One picked herself up and has fashioned a pretty good living as a freelancer. The other one still has a woe-is-me attitude. Neither considers what happened "fair" but how they've reacted is making a big difference in their lives. Experience will "out" though, and as ConfidentDesigner has recounted, the departments are often left in disarray, sometimes never to recover. |
| Marie | Posted – 12/1/2007 3:39:08 PM | show profile I don't mean to get too off track, but anyone who believes they were let go because they're over 40 should consult a lawyer. Don't feel sorry for yourself. Do something about it. This doesn't mean you're ready to wage an all-out lengthy lawsuit, but a lawyer bringing up the possibility of age discrimination can often get you quite a large settlement, money which you will definitely need when you lose your job. Often a lawyer ina consult can simply advise you on how to negotiate your exit arrangement, which can result in thousands in more money. |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 12/2/2007 2:49:00 PM | show profile nandy- sounds like you know about the place I was just laid off from! I am starting my own freelance business and am getting a pretty good response. After working for almost 30 years for someone else and during that 30 years, being laid off about once per decade, I decided enough was enough. It's always been strictly based on $$$ (I made too much) so decided that it was more than likely going to be the same everywhere else too from now on. Basically someone with my exp. level should be collecting AT LEAST $70K per year. Instead, companies, non profit and otherwise, have decided that they'd rather hire young, cheap labor who have some knowledge of the software but none of the exp. or talent. Whatever...I'm that gal (or at least similar) you referred to as making a decent living as a freelancer. For now I have my freedom to chose who I'd LIKE to do work for and am doing surprisingly well. Still not up to the same salary I was before but since it's a fledgling business, that's okay for now. Yes, there is age discrimination in the business world but I'll be damned if I'll let that stop me. I've too much experience, talent AND technological know-how to just give in to the no-nothing, greedy SOBs that run businesses and departments. It's my turn now! ...plus I get to ski during the week while those young whippersnapper slave over a hot computer all day. heh heh heh! |
| Chamsah | Posted – 12/3/2007 12:35:40 PM | show profile This is huge issue This is something I have brought up before and am happy to see it showing up again. I too was laid off this year because of money. After seven years dedicated to my company I was told they "could not afford to keep me" even though my salary was low for industry standard. And we're talking about a multi-million dollar corporation, but that's another story. They just didn't want to pay to keep my position. But who did they decide to keep? Kids more than 10 years my junior who make half my salary. Kids a few years out of college who did not have my experience, my skills, my judgement, my mangement abilities. And did I mention they were paying them peanuts? Saving that relatively small amount money, in the grand scheme of a million dollar budget, was more important to them than having an experienced, seasoned, veteran to the company. Better to hire young and cheap, burn them out, hire a new ones, burn them out, keep hiring young, keep costs down. If that's not age discrimination, I am not sure what is. Anyone over 35 should be worried. And that's damned young. |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 12/3/2007 1:50:18 PM | show profile Chamsah- Yep, that pretty much hits the nail on the head. Companies are doing this like mad and how is that possibly sustainable? I think they are looking at it as a cost-saving measure but what are we going to do with all of these out-of-work 35+ year olds in a few years? Personally, I think we're going to be a third-world nation in a few years, with China and India taking all of our work since we won't have anymore young slave labor to rely on. OR...who knows, companies might start recruiting teenagers or younger soon. |
| Chamsah | Posted – 12/3/2007 4:42:11 PM | show profile Conf Designer You wrote: "...what are we going to do with all of these out-of-work 35+ year olds in a few years? Personally, I think we're going to be a third-world nation in a few years, with China and India taking all of our work since we won't have anymore young slave labor to rely on. OR...who knows, companies might start recruiting teenagers or younger soon." They don't care about all of the almost 40- somethings. Why should they? These magazines are in the business of making money, and if that means slashing and burning salaries and getting rid of their most experienced staff, so be it. There will always someone else coming through the door. Companies no longer see staffers as individuals with skill sets and talents. They see them as salaries, period. If I was considered an individual with a skill set, talent and top performance, those bean counters would have kept me because I was WORTH IT. But I was simply a name and a salary so they were able to cross me off their spread sheet without as second thought. Done, game over. The worst part is that few of us turn around and treat our publications in such a harsh, detached way. We put our hearts into our work, spend countless hours and late nights getting these magazine out the door, never getting a dime in overtime or comp time. For what, really? The topic has come up about the death of magazines. It's partly because of the web, true. But it's also because most magazines don't care about content at all. They want to put a product as fast as possible as cheaply as possible. All you need to do is look at what sells to see how true that is. Anyway, I am on your side with this one, for sure. I have no idea what to do about it but education people is a start. I think it was you who mentioned that everyone hits 35 eventually. In fact, I think this age is starting to drop. Once Atoosa became EIC at, what, 28, we all should've started worrying. |
| BBelinda | Posted – 12/3/2007 6:29:05 PM | show profile Oh, my, no -- you should have started worrying in high school, if you're 35 now. When you were 17, I got laid off at age 39 with experience in my field beginning the year you were born. The next week, my employer advertised my old position as entry-level. It was weird, but you know what? I dusted myself off, went on to a better job and never for a second regretted no longer working for that crazy employer. It only became worse a few years later as the company was shaped up before it was sold to a large media corporation. |
| BBelinda | Posted – 12/3/2007 6:30:29 PM | show profile Pardon my typing finger! I was 35 when I was laid off. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 12/4/2007 4:31:48 AM | show profile You know, I don't need anyone to tell me I have a booger hanging out of my left nostril. And I don't want to hear about it. Eventually I feel it, it tickles, and I reach up to pick it. I can handle the booger myself, thank you. And I'm not all that embarassed by it because as you get older you realize that everyone has at one time or another had a booger hanging out of his or her nose at some point. We all survive, whether we tell or are told about the booger or not. It's just a booger, after all. We all have them. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 12/4/2007 4:35:08 AM | show profile BTW: Marie is right: Age discrimination is usually pretty easy to prove because there is almost always a pattern. A good attorney knows how to get at it, or get you a fat settlement, owever you decide to go. But age disrimination is an easy one--easier than racism or gender discrimination. My bro is a labor lawyer and he says when he hears these calls come in it's like hearing the cash register bell sound in his head. |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 12/4/2007 5:11:29 AM | show profile Then why, when I was laid off a couple of months ago, didn't THREE attorneys I called never even called me back when they knew I had a possible age discrimination case. Yes, that's right ...THREE different attorneys. I just gave up after that resounding response. and what is the booger story all about, anyway? Guess I missed that analogy. |
| Bleak Spouse | Posted – 12/4/2007 8:48:41 AM | show profile after reading this thread is that it sounds like editors in their 40s or in their 50s are all isolated at work for being older. it makes me wonder where all the rest of the 40 and 50 something editors are that they're rarely working with people their own age. maybe they quit the field. |
| Marie | Posted – 12/4/2007 10:43:13 AM | show profile Actually, I said age discrimination is NOT easy to prove, but it's worth going to a lawyer for advice. You can get a lot of help in a one-hour consultation. CD--I think the problem was with the lawyers you called, or messages not properly conveyed. They'd at least have been happy to look over your severance agreement, and told you where there was room to negotiate on your part (extending health insurance is usually something that's possible). Most state laws allow for an extension on signing that agreement. But anyone can understand your wanting to be done with it. |
| Marie | Posted – 12/4/2007 10:45:51 AM | show profile Actually, I said age discrimination is NOT easy to prove, but it's worth going to a lawyer for advice. You can get a lot of help in a one-hour consultation. CD--I think the problem was with the lawyers you called, or messages not properly conveyed. They'd at least have been happy to look over your severance agreement, and told you where there was room to negotiate on your part (extending health insurance is usually something that's possible). Most state laws allow for an extension on signing that agreement. But anyone can understand your wanting to be done with it. |
