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Topic: Discrimination
| Author | Message |
| HyancinthGirl | Posted – 12/24/2007 3:15:57 PM | show profile Hi all. I read the posts that had to do with age discrimination and wondered what people would do if they were discriminated against because they are not so pretty. I happen to be a not so pretty woman who is overweight, and although I do work hard at my appearance, there just isn't much I can do short of plastic surgery. I'm ok with it: I'm happily married and I've been lucky enough to land jobs on my intelligence and skills. I've gotten used to being passed over for photos of me at my show and instead having my more photogenic assistant being put in print (although some folks mistakengly think that she is the senior editor instead of me). But now that I am in the running again for a new job the twinges of panic have come back. I have all my teeth and I don't smell! (You'd be surprised what I've been told people think of me.) Does anyone have any advice to reclaim my nerves of steel and help my prospective employers get passed my exterior? I often wonder if I should have chosen a career where I am less visible, then I think--Screw it! I deserve to be doing what I'm good at and what I love. Not everyone has that kind of attitude and it's breaking down the stereotypes of the younger beauties that I have the problem with. |
| cynnamonshticks | Posted – 12/25/2007 2:28:05 PM | show profile Re; Discrimination People can be lame sometimes, amd discrimination comes in all shapes and sizes. Please remember what you have accomplished (it sounds like you're doing great, being a senior editor and all) and remember how hard you have worked. Bring all that in with you at the interview and let em have it! |
| writesonwater | Posted – 12/25/2007 6:56:27 PM | show profile We've all heard that pretty is as pretty does and the importance of inner beauty -- and outer beauty going only skin deep. Having confidence and radiating an interest in others has probably helped you to date -- I'd look at focusing on that, as well as making sure all your outer i's are dotted and t's are crossed. Chunky women can still look great, carry themselves well and feel good about themselves, and that helps. Do an inventory of your assets: a great smile, lovely eyes, good hair, a mellifluous voice -- something about you will give you something to focus on and take pride in. That's all appearance though -- the poster is right about focusing on your competencies and what you bring to the table. Good luck! |
| seeattleme | Posted – 12/26/2007 1:11:05 AM | show profile These posts are (too, FAR too) often focused on what those who ARE discriminated against can do to "put down thier buckets" "pull up thier bottstraps" and "rise above it a;;" by being "brilliant (competent is RARELY enough) at what you do. You know. This may come as something of a newsflash, but some of the people who read these posts are NOT those victimized by various forms of discrimination (age, weight, class, etc) but instead those who victimize others. Consciously or subconciously, whathaveyou. Those in a position of hiring and firing. So telling otheres to just "do your best and hope for the best" doesn't really send the message home: that this is wrong, just as WHITES ONLY was wrong, and that it shouldn't be an acceptable practice--that we should all be aware of it and discussing it on an active basis. Dismissing it does NO ONE any good. So let's think people, and have a lively discussion. Instead of the same old same old. If you have nothing productive to say, go respond to the posts about freelance rates instead. |
| Vox-o | Posted – 12/26/2007 2:07:59 AM | show profile Why can't you do something about being so overweight, other than plastic surgery? Do you have a disease or genetic issue of some sort? |
| Vox-o | Posted – 12/26/2007 2:09:08 AM | show profile Granitegirl, put down the liquor. You preemptive strike just seems weird. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 12/26/2007 11:37:42 AM | show profile It can be difficult to prove discrimination because of looks. Career snubs can be subtle and explained in other ways. Because it's not one of the obvious discriminations -- age, gender, color -- it may hide. I have average looks, and while some men have found me appealing, I'm no raving beauty. when I was in broadcasting I did some on-air work. I used to quip to friends that I had a perfect face for radio. Certainly I was on several occasions passed over in favor of women who had more classical, symmetrically perfect looks -- but that was the nature of the business at that time. I think things have opened up in TV, looks-wise, perhaps. |
| Bleak Spouse | Posted – 12/26/2007 1:51:28 PM | show profile This is a great point. I think the biggest discrimination of all is against physically unattractive people. I saw it first hand at AOL...the first people to be laidoff were the unattractive girls...and the beautiful girls basically have jobs for life. |
| UnemployedNNJ | Posted – 12/26/2007 3:10:16 PM | show profile I believe they have done studies on subjects like this and honestly I don't understand why people act like this doesn't exists. Take a walk on Fashion Avenue (Seventh Avenue) what type of people do you see? Tall, thin, caucasion mainly, and high heeled femme fatales!!! This can deter anyone from going after their passion and HyacinthGirl I applaud you. I admire you for sticking it out and getting to where you are because you know what beauty fades but dumb is forever. Beauty will get you to a certain point but intelligence will keep you there and further your career. I can't fathom having plastic surgery just to lose weight (why,so you can look like bobblehead Star Jones? Or so that people can praise you to your face but talk about you behind your back?) Try working out 30 minutes a day for two weeks. That way you get your body into a routine and can gradually begin to work out longer. Change your morning krispy kreme and latte to oatmeal and a bagel which will fill you up for a longer period of time and then have a small lunch. Good Luck |
| seeattleme | Posted – 12/26/2007 4:26:43 PM | show profile You're right, Vox O. Now that I'm sober, I realize--there is no discrimination in America or anywhere else. People are just complainers. Thank God for rational think tanks like you. |
| katestarrr | Posted – 12/26/2007 4:51:26 PM | show profile | email poster i agree with granitegirl the whole 'blame the victim' mentality isn't going to get you anywhere. why should plastic surgery be necessary to get a job? i don't know the original poster, but i'm sure they've been around long enough to have already heard the whole 'you're beautiful on the inside' 'carry yourself with confidence' spiel, and i'll bet it isn't all that helpful to her. and to whoever said that appearance discrimination is the worst kind, i think thats kind of true and kind of not. if more experienced people didn't look 'experienced' things wouldn't be as bad for them. if minorities didn't look like minorities, it wouldn't be that bad for them, either. if females and males looked the same...etc. the appearance discrimination isn't so much worse than any other kind, because it encompasses every other kind. |
| updated | Posted – 12/26/2007 5:49:01 PM | show profile Of course you deserve to be doing what you're good at and love. You asked for some advice, so I have a few suggestions. Basically, you want to create an impression of self-confidence, and not distract with your appearance, but rather enhance your presence. I've known many women who were big, and I am increasingly overweight myself lately, and there is a way to dress to look your best when meeting prospective employers. Usually a tailored look that's contemporary but coordinated is sufficent to be businesslike but flattering. A smart blazer in a color that is good for you with a softening neck by a nice blouse or an accent scarf can work. Dark slacks, simple coordinated shoes and any elegant accessories, like pearl earrings, or a modern lapel pin, can make you look sophisticated. Get a flattering hair cut and simple makeup that just looks like you know how to work with what you've got. Smile! White teeth and an energized presence is the physical manifestation of your inner confidence. You'd be amazed at how few people remember just to smile. Have good posture. Make eye contact with them, be attentive and listen well, and respond articulately and even with mild humor. In other words, you are at ease and putting them at ease as well. You'll very quickly get down to business and realize that you're not in the presence of a rare beauty either. Thank them, shaking hands before and after. Graceousness goes a long way in leaving a bigger impression than pounds. Hope this helps. |
| Vox-o | Posted – 12/26/2007 10:15:45 PM | show profile Regarding the plastic surgery thing, why not lose the weight? Unless you really have a disease or genetic condition, why not improve your health by losing the weight? With rare exceptions, weight is not an immutable characteristic. It isn't fair that people discriminate against someone for it, but it really isn't the same as discriminating against people for race, sex or age. And as another person already pointed out, it is impossible to prove.) Fact: discrimination exists. Against the old, against the young, against the fat, against the ugly, against people of color, against women... and yes, when a company decides on the "none of the above" box, against good looking tall white men. Get used to it, learn how to hold your head high, and become a stronger candidate in every way you can. You can throw a pity party every time it happens, a la a granitegirl rant, or you can keep doing what you have done which is emphasize your skills and do your best, or you can lose the weight in order to take that out of the equation. |
| HyancinthGirl | Posted – 12/27/2007 11:23:36 AM | show profile It's slightly funny how much emphasis was put on my weight, and while I thank you for the Jenny Craig suggestions, that's not really the main problem. Maybe I should make it more clear. I have a birth defect that is very obvious on my face, which I won't detail because who knows who is trolling on these boards (potential employer?). Trust me, I have been to all the stylists and have the best haircuts that money can buy, I know the tricks with makeup and clothing. I've done it all. I give it my all every morning. It's just that sometimes, the anxiety comes flooding back because looks really do play a part in how far you go. I came to this board in a moment of self doubt and weakness, and I'm glad that I did. Some of the ignorant comments have really inspired me to give it my all and wow my employers with my incredible resume. And there is one great thing about having an ugly boss: at least I don't look for the stick figure bubble heads and think twice before judging someone on their looks. It takes all kinds to get the job done. Thanks for the input. Happy holidays to you all, fat, skinny, ugly, pretty, and arrogant. |
| foodlit | Posted – 12/27/2007 2:13:54 PM | show profile Hyacinth, As you know, looks do matter, that is the ugly truth. But, there are things you can do immediately that can make a difference in how you are perceived. Even people who are not classically beautiful can still look really polished and professional. That is something you may want to focus on. Take a good look at your general attire, and kick it up a notch. You may even want to invest in a session with a personal shopper or image consultant, someone who can suggest colors and styles that will flatter you and your skin tone. That makes a huge difference. Dressing better, creating an overall polished appearance with solid credentials to back it up will put you right into the running. Especially if you've been with the company long enough for them to know your capabilities. A slight overhaul of your image might really make a difference. It certainly can't hurt. I've heard it said that you should dress for the job you want, not the one you have. So, if you aspire to management and they wear suits for instance, you should wear them occasionally too, or just upgrade your overall dress so that they can 'see' you in a more senior role. Perception becomes reality. I've seen it happen time and time again. Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the weight. As long as you are polished and put together, that won't hold you back. Not if you're already at the company. I've seen people promoted rapidly regardless of weight. I've also seen overweight people hired over others, and the one common factor was that they presented themselves well, in all aspects, polished and professional dress and a likeable confident manner. Good luck! :) Pam |
| nandy | Posted – 12/27/2007 2:18:57 PM | show profile Birth defects are one of the hardest things for the general public to accept. Weight can go up or down, for the most part, based on the individual's choices, but BD's are there from the beginning, and as you say, if it's on your face, it's out there for all the world to see. I think it stems from a visceral reaction to shun the imperfect. Putting their gut reaction aside is hard. Some people can do it; many can't. Instead, they'll come up with some reason why you don't fit the criteria for the job, when all it really comes down to is you make them feel uncomfortable. I have worked with several people who had birth defects, and quite frankly there were a couple who's personalities were so outstanding that I never noticed their BD until I had been working with them for a while. Maybe they had developed a skill at hiding it, or maybe they were just so enjoyable to be around; it's hard to say. Then there were a couple others who used their BD's shamelessly as an excuse for every wrong that came their way, one going so far as to say it was the reason for their dismissal when a whole department was let go. The bottom line is, there but for the grace of God, go I. While I have no visible birth defect, I have no illusion that I will always have a pleasing face. Illness or accident could irreparably scar it at any time. "Age" will hopefully be the only cause. And I know some employers would find reasons not to hire me, even though I would be the same person inside that I was before the disfigurement. |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 12/27/2007 3:34:07 PM | show profile You're missing the point. What the original poster asked for -- and what others are trying to provide -- are specific strategies to help her deal with discrimination. She didn't want to have a philosophical debate on discrimination. That's not to say such a debate is without merit; it just isn't the purpose of this thread. --These posts are (too, FAR too) often focused on what those who ARE discriminated against can do to "put down thier buckets" "pull up thier bottstraps" and "rise above it a;;" by being "brilliant (competent is RARELY enough) at what you do. You know. This may come as something of a newsflash, but some of the people who read these posts are NOT those victimized by various forms of discrimination (age, weight, class, etc) but instead those who victimize others. Consciously or subconciously, whathaveyou. Those in a position of hiring and firing.-- |
| seeattleme | Posted – 12/27/2007 4:13:29 PM | show profile I think the poster will be more assured and feel better if others agree that this happens and it's wrong, etc etc. Why bother with surgery, Vox O? WHy not just throw up your food after you eat it? You can purchase mouthguards that will delay the rot to your teeth, and chances are you can keep it up for 20, 30 years before you suffer any serious heart/kidney damage as a result. If this poster is already in her thirties, why, she's home free. She'll retire before any serious medical issues develop. Surgery, after all, isn't coverred by insurance unless one is morbidly obese, and it requires a lot of recovery time--much ore than your FMA benefits will cover. If you have trouble using your fingers, try a toothbrush. And I hardly would describe my paragraph of comments on this issue as a rant (or a pity party, really)--but I'm a writer by profession, so I'm a little more careful about my adverb selection than most. |
| foodlit | Posted – 12/27/2007 5:23:22 PM | show profile Granitegirl, What exactly is your point? It does seem like you are just looking to rant here for some reason, and that you are the one who isn't offering anything substantial to the discussion. Are you looking for people to say, 'this is so wrong?' Because any idiot can see that it is. That doesn't change the fact that it happens. Sitting here commenting on how unfair it is, doesn't give a solution for how to deal with it. Unless I'm missing something, I think that is what the poster was looking for, ways to rise above the discrimination that she knows she faces. And I think there have been some good suggestions here, along with some, such as losing weight, that might seem a little mean-spirited, but I don't think that was the intent. Of course losing weight would help, but it's far easier said than done, and I don't know anyone who is overweight who isn't aware of it as an issue and who doesn't want to lose weight. It seems like a simple solution, just stop eating, and lose weight, but as many know it's not easy. It's incredibly difficult. This kind of discrimination is so much more difficult to prove as well because it is so vague, so it continues to happen. The only real way to deal with it is to tackle it head on, as best you can. Pam |
| UnemployedNNJ | Posted – 12/27/2007 5:51:49 PM | show profile Exactly. You know it exists, you feel like it is happening to you so what can you possibly do? Continue to move forward and hopefully get into a position where you can call the shots and get rid of the scum. The truth of the matter is it happens, you can't control it or stop it. Some people are ignorant and believe that we all should aspire to look like what we see airbrushed in magazines. Your best bet is to rise above it, try to ignore it, and keep on moving. A birth defect is something you can't control so you get used to it and let others know you are not going anywhere. |
| nandy | Posted – 12/27/2007 10:37:15 PM | show profile Dribbledrive, there is no way to "get around it". There is no way to avoid the discrimination. It is there and some people just have to deal with it, as distasteful as that is. There is no way to "handle it." But as I said, I have seen people with BD's with very different personalities. Some were able to compensate for their lack of fingers (in one case) with a very funny, outgoing persona. I really didn't notice her BD until I had been working with her for almost a year. So I guess the advice I have to give is to distract from it by being the nicest, friendliest person HG can be. That is what seems to have worked in the cases I've seen. |
| Vox-o | Posted – 12/28/2007 1:51:50 AM | show profile granitegirl is such a useless weirdo The OP said "there just isn't much I can do short of plastic surgery" which is why I asked about surgery as opposed to losing weight. ******** All you can do is do your best, be your best, if you are being discriminated against for a birth defect. You have to develop your own self-esteem, because nobody will hand it over to you. Even still, some people will look at your differently, but such is life. |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 12/28/2007 2:57:01 AM | show profile I must admit I am unclear about the semantics of "dealing with it" vs "handling it." --Dribbledrive, there is no way to "get around it". There is no way to avoid the discrimination. It is there and some people just have to deal with it, as distasteful as that is. There is no way to "handle it."-- |
| nandy | Posted – 12/28/2007 12:58:31 PM | show profile In the context that I used it, "handle it" means a way to bring it back to the person creating the discrimination and end it once and for all, while "dealing with it" means finding a way to nullify it's effect without actually ending it...because it can't be ended. I'm saying it can't be ended (because it's such a visceral thing, people will always feel some negativity) but it can be nullified (in that people can be won over). |
| noname1234 | Posted – 12/28/2007 1:23:53 PM | show profile Nandy, the original poster didn't imply she had a birth defect or similar immutable physical difference -- she simply described herself as "not so pretty." It could be that her challenge is more about self-esteem and self-presentation, rather than dealing with/handling others' visceral reactions to her physical characteristics. |
