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Topic: Discrimination
| Author | Message |
| UGoGirl | Posted – 12/28/2007 1:28:23 PM | show profile You go Granitegirl, speak your truth and tell it like it is! |
| UGoGirl | Posted – 12/28/2007 1:33:15 PM | show profile It's absolutely true that it is easier for more attractive people to do well in the workplace and elsewhere. It's entirely unfair. But on the other hand, I have seen just average looking people do quite well, although it seems they have to be better at what they do to compensate. Also, some of this may have to do with the signals society sends people based on how they look, which in turn effects feelings of self-worth, which in turn effects how you carry yourself in front of others, etc. |
| Guiseppina S. | Posted – 12/28/2007 2:30:41 PM | show profile This is an interesting thread, and an issue that I have to admit that I was subconsciously guilty of. There's this one girl at my company who gets away with being a real bitch to everyone and any other person would be fired, but this girl is built like a supermodel and always gets excused for her bad behavior and lack of work ethic. I remember when I had a temporary weight gain that I got a lot less respect from people I didn't know, and it hurt so much that I vowed never to be fat again. I have no advice for the OP except to say that she has a good attitude about it. |
| Guiseppina S. | Posted – 12/28/2007 2:33:47 PM | show profile One more thing. Could this just be interview jitters? Everyone gets nervous before an interview, even the "younger beauties". |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 12/28/2007 4:06:16 PM | show profile Yeah, I think this is just an exercise in semantics. I don't think anyone on this thread is planning a strategy for ending discrimination in our time. --In the context that I used it, "handle it" means a way to bring it back to the person creating the discrimination and end it once and for all, while "dealing with it" means finding a way to nullify it's effect without actually ending it...because it can't be ended. I'm saying it can't be ended (because it's such a visceral thing, people will always feel some negativity) but it can be nullified (in that people can be won over).-- |
| beenthere | Posted – 12/28/2007 5:35:30 PM | show profile All I can say is I can emphasize majorly with the poster, but from the opposite side, sort of. My boss tends to hire contract freelancers based on appearance and whether someone "presents well." My boss will meet with them, choose one and then we are stuck working on projects with them directly?my boss doesn't have any working relationship with them after the interview stage. It is extremely frustrating. In my experience with these freelancers that "present well," they just don't have the chops to do the job correctly?half the time they can't even follow simple directions. I have nightmare stories. |
| LoDo | Posted – 12/29/2007 4:11:58 PM | show profile | email poster Hyacinth, as an actor, my looks are pretty much what drives my place in the industry. However, there is a place for everyone in that industry, despite what the tabloids say. But, outright discrimination is discrimination, and if you feel you've been discriminated against, you need to document as much as possible. I suggest you look at sites like http://www.workplacefairness.org/ Good luck, and if someone decides to make a comment on your beauty mark, tell him or her around every thousand years, a woman is born with the Mark of Wisdom and Gorgeousness...and you happen to be her! :-) ------ Lori |
| nandy | Posted – 12/29/2007 10:41:50 PM | show profile Noname...read her secondp ost. She mentions a birth defect there. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 12/29/2007 11:24:12 PM | show profile Hyacinth, good luck with your quest for fairness and a better situation. Sounds like you've been working on the polish side of things like we all need to, which is great. The comment one poster made about an attitude that says you're not going anywhere has a good point, I think. There's a gracious, confident approach (buoyed by good taste and careful choices in dress and grooming) mentioned by others here that can cause people you meet to focus less on your BD and more on your grace, charm, competence. No doubt you've learned to wait for people to get over looking at your BD and meet your eyes and get on with getting to know the real you. I was in line behind a woman at the store who had a major portwine birth defect on her face. It was complicated by a number of growths, and really dominated your first impression of her. However, waiting in a slow line I couldn't help but notice her interactions with her kids and the checker and she had a great personality, a kindness that radiated from her. Overall, she was the most appealing and nice person I had seen in weeks, and certainly a splendid example of pretty is as pretty does. You can't control other people's shallow reactions to something you change but being your best self is always a good approach. |
| granitegirl | Posted – 12/30/2007 2:33:19 PM | show profile Pam; I don't really know what "useful" advice I can give to someone who is being discriminated against because she isn't attractive or is overweight. Am I going to tell her to lose weight or get surgery so she can be treated fairly? No. Will I tell her to "dress better"? No. I don't see how any of these solutions solve the problem, which I see as, this is wrong, and the best way to prove it is wrong is by being so good they can't ignore you, in Steve Martin's words. And THAT doesn't always work. Find another job? Different people to work with? I guess these are all solutions, but none are easy or practical. There are many epople who do well at their jobs who do NOT fit the physical mold of what is considered attractive or even appropriate. They are far and few between, but look at Hillary Clinton, Cathy Crowley on CNN, Oprah Winfrey, Ruth Ginsberg, Kathy Bates...Barbara O'Dair at More is no looker, and the halls of Hearst are filled with women at the top of mastheads who look like death warmed over--albeit Death in Prada and Calvin Klein warmed over (those who haven't gone under thge knife, anyway, and even those women look scary after awhile. You can't avoid it. Eventually you GROW OLD.) But they are all smart shrewd women, have been and will be long after the eyes bag and the neck ropes and they gain all that weight in their 40s and 50s only to lose it in their 70s and 80s when they're lucky to be able to stand up at all. Will the beautiful people always get treated better on this planet? Probably. But not by everyone. You need to find the people to whom looks aren't important, people who focus on other things, and surround yourself with those people as much as possible--personally, absolutely, professionally if you can. And quit determining your own worth by the way other people see/treat you. You can't do anything about that. Most people are so wrapped up in their own lives and the way they've been "screwed" by whatever system they happen to be existing in/focused on that they don't think twice about how their treating other people. And I know people on this board may think I dated Vox-o or refused to sit on his/her face or something but I have no idea who this person is and have no idea why he/she is attacking me/following me around on this board. |
| Brena | Posted – 1/1/2008 5:37:34 PM | show profile To illustrate the opposite situation, being attractive certainly doesn't come without its fair share of nuisances and discriminations. To have people, even in the workplace, commenting on how beautiful/pretty you look in situations that has no bearing on how one looks is distracting, inappropriate and can be insulting. Imagine giving a presentation in front of a group of "professionals" when someone comes up to you at the end and tell you how pretty you are, not how informative and engaging your presentation was. I hate to toot my own horn, but for demonstration purposes, I consider myself attractive. I remember seeing a male gynecologists several years ago when he had to mention, along with my test results, how "pretty" I was. So what! What does that have to do with the matter at hand? Needless to say, I never saw this doctor again because I was extremely uncomfortable. I go out of my way to *look* smart, so people will get beyond my physical appearance. I've been told several times by people in professional industries that I will get far in life because of my appearance. My husband has not told me once how pretty or beautiful I was. Not once. And I love him for that. So in many ways, I can relate to you that people tend to judge you based on your looks. |
| granitegirl | Posted – 1/2/2008 9:40:39 PM | show profile dewdox, yes, you are right, but all the stats are in your favor. You get the jobs, the promotions, etc. for being more attractive. Studies prove this. So while I get your general point, I won't shed any tears for you--it's like white people who complain about affirmative action -- I will say that people are besically superficial creatures. If you are not such a creature, you need to surround yourself with others who are not as well. |
| Guiseppina S. | Posted – 1/3/2008 11:44:14 AM | show profile I'm with dewdoxx. It's so hard to be so pretty in the industry. People just assume that you've slept with the boss or did something bad to get hired. I didn't. Will I always have a job? Yup. People hire me on the spot. But I have to work ten times harder than the uglier people to get any kind of respect. I think that if you don't have such a nice outside you have to overcompensate by being really smart and classy on the inside. I just happen to have both. It's a whole lot harder to be judged because you have great boobs than it is to be judged ugly. |
| foodlit | Posted – 1/3/2008 12:13:40 PM | show profile I hope you are joking, even if you are, not the most sensitive thing to be posting on this thread, given the original post. Try switching places for even a day with that ugly person and then see how you feel. |
| Guiseppina S. | Posted – 1/3/2008 1:10:51 PM | show profile It's not about being insensitive. The OP is complaining that people can't get past her outside. I'm simply illustrating that being great on the outside is just as hard, if not harder. Yeah I have a leg up with getting the job, but the people there who resent my looks all gossip behind my back and the upper people don't respect what I have to offer work wise. It's not always a walk in the park to be beautiful. It's hard for everyone to get respect, not just people who are considered unattractive. It's way harder to be respected for your looks rather than your talent because it's so much harder to maintain. I bet that the OP doesn't work out an hour a day like I have to, or eat salads every day for lunch and dinner instead of enjoying a cheeseburger, or spend gobs of money on the latest fashions because what was in style last spring is out this spring. I may have the job, but my pressure is great, if not greater, than the OP's. It's not easy for anyone. |
| katestarrr | Posted – 1/3/2008 1:46:35 PM | show profile then eat more, quit excersizing, smear grease on your face before going to bed, no more make-up, stop curling/dying your hair...quit 'maintaining' your looks. maybe your life of trials and tribulations for being pretty will get better. i'm pretty cute, but too young and subsequently too low on the totem pole for anyone to figure i've slept with anyone yet. still, if i'm still cute a few years down the road and the day comes that people start talking about me, i'll know how to cure that problem (see my first paragraph). but i'm not going to. |
| Mag Girl | Posted – 1/3/2008 2:03:12 PM | show profile katestarr, you do not have a grasp on the world, professional or otherwise, if you think it would solve anything by doing what you sugguest. And to the above point about being attractive- yes, it's true, it does create the same obstacle - having to work harder to earn respect and the RIGHT kind of professional attention. ANd the same for looking incredibly young. Many people face obstacles of some sort in the workplace, and it's not insensitive to point that out. These are also things people can't change. But if you do your job well enough and long enough with the right attitude, the respect does eventually come no matter what you look like. Unless you work with complete boors. Now actually getting the job is another story... I've had problems in the past because I look like a girl who should still be passing beers around at the sorority house instead of the professional I am with many years' experience, great clips and glowing references. C'est la vie. |
| katestarrr | Posted – 1/3/2008 3:09:31 PM | show profile welcome to the world of sarcasm, mag girl. that wasn't a serious suggestion. i was saying that, yes, everyone has problems, but you don't see anyone trying to look less attractive. if you think its harder being attractive, coming from a person who was quite the...er...interesting looking kid when i was younger, you have a choice to go the other direction. |
| Mag Girl | Posted – 1/3/2008 3:40:18 PM | show profile au contraire- you do see attractive women trying to downplay their looks, though, to be taken seriously. They even try to take the "fun" and warmth out of their personalities to try to be viewed as more serious professionals...I've seen quite a few women do this. |
| Guiseppina S. | Posted – 1/3/2008 6:08:59 PM | show profile katestarr, weren't you the newbie who went postal in another forum bragging about how great you were to get a good-paying job right out of school? So what makes you wholly qualilfied to knock my perception of the business world? Contrary to new grads' popular beliefs, we do not all sit around the campfire at work and sing Kum Ba Yah and tell each other that we are ok for being different. What the OP faces is a lot like what others face, beautiful or "not so pretty" in the OP's words. I was simply enlightening her that she is not alone. We all have our crosses to bear. Some of us just wear them on our faces. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 1/3/2008 6:47:32 PM | show profile It doesn't seem to make sense to me to complain bitterly about how unfairly you're treated because you're gorgeous -- and then to complain about how much harder you have to work to stay gorgeous. At that rate, you will resent your own looks, the homely people who have it "better" than you, the people you work to impress with your looks. You will always have a job because of your looks? That's not a handicap. |
| Mag Girl | Posted – 1/3/2008 7:13:11 PM | show profile writesonwater, you have a point there. I personally wasn't talking about people who constantly diet/work out to be gorgeous though...just those born naturally pretty. devil's advocating here...definitely not talking about me! :) I was, though, talking about me personally looking very young. |
| catlondon | Posted – 1/3/2008 7:33:17 PM | show profile I have a naturally beautiful friend while I am quite plain (no matter how much work, diet etc), although I'm somewhat smarter and quicker. The downside for her is that every skeevy man seems to think she is going to find him hot and that has led to many uncomfortable work situations, so I have to say there is something to not being able to attract much attention. On the other hand, her career path has been far easier than mine, and that's because we work in a male dominated business and she's pretty and I'm not and there you have it. Interestingly, I'm aging much better than she is. But that said, I adore her and don't begrudge her her success, because she is smart and talented. However, someone once said that beautiful woman can talk away her looks in 10 ten minutes, and I've seen that happen, too. |
| InsomniacNOT | Posted – 1/3/2008 7:40:23 PM | show profile I think that's happened twice on this very thread to two self-proclaimed beauties. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 1/3/2008 9:01:17 PM | show profile I hear you. Just something to consider, I will have to say that I'm no gorgeous thing and i have STILL had more than my share of skeevy guys and workplace jerks etc. If it's propositions, not proposals -- we all get those ;) Lest anyone think they're singled out solely for desireability, just a reminder that predatory behavior is a crime of opportunity ... It's not a good thing, but is workplace security for the wrong reasons still workplace security? |
