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Topic: Perfect binding quality question...
| Author | Message |
| creatrix | Posted – 2/10/2008 1:21:44 AM | show profile We recently had a 104 page directory printed with a heavier cover stock. The cover is not as quite as wide as the interior pages. The printing press claims the cover stock was cold when it arrived and if it was not brought to room temperature first, this could happen. Has anyone heard of this before? What else can go wrong in perfect binding that would have the cover not be trimmed to the same edge as the interior pages? We are stumped, and not sure we are getting the truth from the printer. |
| bart23ny | Posted – 2/10/2008 11:11:31 AM | show profile I never heard that before, but what's the difference? Sounds like BS to me. The printer is still responsible for delivering a correct job. They should reprint or give you a refund. |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/10/2008 12:25:19 PM | show profile | email poster Yes Yes Yes, this is called "growth issue". What happens is that when you print a sheet fed cover and heatset web text. Both are bound and trimmed flush together. After a period of time what happens is that the heatset portion of the text paper regains moisture from the atmosphere and actually grows slightly. The sheetfed printed covers do not go through dryers. The heatset text does go through dryers therefore moisture is sucked out of the paper stock. When I have a printing client that uses a sheetfed cover and web text. I clearly state this on the proposal so there is no surprises. There is really no way around this other than to print text and cover both heatset. even then there may be a varience due to different paper stocks but more slight. |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/10/2008 12:29:02 PM | show profile | email poster ....to Bart, You don't know what your talking about and have no experience with this. please don't give advice on subjects where you have no expertise. |
| bart23ny | Posted – 2/10/2008 7:13:33 PM | show profile Hey printingman, I didn't mean any offense. I'm just saying if I paid for a job to be done right, I want it delivered correct. You even said "There is really no way around this other than to print text and cover both heatset." Then shouldn't the printer have done that? |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/10/2008 8:14:01 PM | show profile | email poster Hey Bart, I didn't mean to come down so hard on you but you were so adamant that you never heard of "growth" issue and it is legitimate. The reason a printer would print a cover sheet fed rather than web could be many reasons such as: 1. Quantity, most web printer won't fire up their web presses unless the quantity is over 25,000, remember a cover is usually printed 4 up so that's really only a press run of about 5200, very small amount. It's just not cost effective but the quantity can vary from printer to printer, so it's very common to marry sheet fed with heatset 2. Some stock, usually over 8 pt are just too thick to run on most heatset web presses so if you have a 10 pt or 12 pt cover, it has to run sheet fed no matter what quantity. 3. If a cover is die cut, embossed etc, it has to run sheet fed no matter what the quantity. Hope this helps. I wish we had more printing questions and issues here. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 2/11/2008 8:15:32 AM | show profile | email poster That's very interesting, Printingman. I bet lots more people have printing questions -- I have some myself. Don't you think the printer is responsible to either redo the cover (can this be done???) or at least give a significant discount or something? I'm sure it's disconcerting to get all these books and have them look short-sheeted, for lack of a better word. If a printer wanted my business again, he'd have to do something more than say what went wrong. ------ http://writingporch.blogspot.com/ http://jlouiselarson.blogspot.com/ http://familyrootsandwings.blogspot.com/ |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/11/2008 9:20:16 AM | show profile | email poster First of all we're probably talking about a growth issue of around 1/32nd of an inch or so and if you look at almost all magazines that use a different cover than text paper, you will see some sort of growth. I am looking at a New Yorker right now and there is slight growth. What we do is put a disclaimer on the proposal that states when sheet fed and heatset bind together the heatset portion regains moisture and grows slightly This is a universal issue and doesn't mean something went wrong, it's just the nature of printing and paper. |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/11/2008 9:25:43 AM | show profile So to answer your question, this is not an issue where a printer should be giving credits or doing reprints. Like I stated before, to prevent it you should ask the printer if both cover and text can be printed heatset but it may not be cost effective depending on quantity or it may not be possible due to variance in paper stock. It is an important printing issue and I'm glad it was brought up on this board |
| bart23ny | Posted – 2/11/2008 11:22:05 AM | show profile Hi Printingman, Can this problem be addressed by overcompensating? Say by making the trim size 1/8" or 1/16" larger. I know it's hard to anticipate how much, but 1/16" all around should do it, no? PS-I also think it's a good idea to have more printing questions. Maybe the "Designer's Corner" can be renamed to "Designer's/Printer's Corner." |
| creatrix | Posted – 2/11/2008 12:35:04 PM | show profile Thank you so much for the feedback! I am going to try and get more information about how they printed this and if this was inevitable or not. |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/11/2008 5:17:39 PM | show profile | email poster Bart, Overcompensation won't help because the cover and the text are trimmed flush together. Think of making a slice on a 7 layer cake. Each layer is flush with the next. Then what happens is the heatset text regains moisture from the atmosphere and actually grows slightly whereby the cover does not because it didn't pass through dryers. |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/11/2008 5:24:15 PM | show profile | email poster Creatrix, I would be interested in knowing whether the cover and text were both printed heatset or one printed sheetfed and what type of stock was each printed on, also what was the press run. I know there's got to be other production related questions out there concerning soft proofing, printing binding, mailing and distro. makes for interesting discussion. |
| creatrix | Posted – 2/12/2008 3:26:51 PM | show profile Printingman, I am trying to find out the answers to your questions about whether they used both web and sheetfed, and what kind of stock, as I am very curious and want to be able to address this problem in the future ... I do know the print run was only 24,000. |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/13/2008 12:43:08 AM | show profile | email poster If the print run was 24,000 then your probably in a grey area where the cover may have been printed sheet fed. Still curios and would like to know the details. I may have suggestions. Also care to disclose the printer? Has everyone heard that Quebecor declared bankrupt. I saw a list of their creditors and 22 out of approx 40 are paper mills and paper brokers. This could actually have a positive affect in lowering or at least stabilize paper prices which have been soaring to late. We'll see. |
| nandy | Posted – 2/13/2008 10:43:27 AM | show profile All Quebecor? Wow. |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/14/2008 12:49:44 PM | show profile | email poster Yes all Quebecor, at least Quebecor N. America, I think Europe tanked first. They did get ainfusion of cash up to 1 billion from Morgan Stanley, how long that lasts for restructuring, we'll see. Doesn't bode well in this economy |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 2/18/2008 12:01:36 PM | show profile My question harkens back to the original post. Why, if this is true, didn't the printer let the cover stock come up to room temp. before sticking it on the press? This is ultimately THEIR fault and yes, I would expect a refund on that job or to be printed correctly. Period. I don't care about excuses like that. If they were a decent printer, they would have let the stock warm up before printing. |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/18/2008 2:43:42 PM | show profile | email poster We're not talking about cover stock coming up to room temperature, that doesn't mean anything, it's the text stock that was run through the heatset presses which regain moisture after the signatures are printed and expands slightly. Like most printers text signatures are brick stacked in bundles or "logs" which are tightly compressed together and wait to be bound, there's no chance for the text sigs to regain moisture while waiting to be bound. It will only occur when both cover and text sigs are bound and trimmed together. Like I stated before, this is the nature of heatset and sheetfed printing. There's no way around it. Hope this clears up this issue. |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/18/2008 2:53:28 PM | show profile | email poster To confident designer. What I do is always state on the proposal that "when sheetfed covers and heatset text bind together there may be some growth of the heatset text when it regains moisture". I even go as far as showing samples of what may occur. Almost 100% of the time the publisher is aware prior to printing and never asks for a credit because they realize that this is the nature of printing and paper. I see you would like to find someone to blame but really this is not a printer quality issue, it's the nature of paper, ink, water and heat as well as printing processes. |
| creatrix | Posted – 2/19/2008 1:11:42 PM | show profile My question is, why did the printer -- who did the exact same job two years in a row -- deliver a perfectly trimmed magazine with no 'growth' issues. It was only about 20 pages larger, had the same print run quantity, and used the same stock... |
| creatrix | Posted – 2/19/2008 1:12:31 PM | show profile --- this was a different printer than the one who delivered the badly trimmed magazine... |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/19/2008 2:17:04 PM | show profile | email poster Creatrix, remember this is not poor trim, the second the book came off the binder trimmer both are trimmed flush. It's the growth of the text after the trim. The previous printer possible could have printed the book both cover and text heatset or sheetfed, it's when you combine the two, you will see growth. You should ask this current printer if they used a sheetfed press for the cover and heatset web press for text. I personally would like to know if that's the case. I would also like to know exactly what stock both cover and text were printed on. If I printed this job and the quantity was 25,000 copies, we would have printed both on the heatset web press assuming the cover was below a 10 pt stock. I'm in the printing/production industry and will be the first one to admit when a printer is at fault. I believe that this printer was at fault for not discussing this issue before they printed the job but not at fault for poor quality. |
| creatrix | Posted – 2/19/2008 5:02:12 PM | show profile Thanks for taking the time to explain all this, Pman. I am trying to find out the stock and processes used, because I am curious, too. Not sure if I ever will get this info.... I could mail you a physical copy a 'growth' and 'no-growth' issue of the magazine for your expert opinion, if you are so inclined. |
| Printingman | Posted – 2/19/2008 5:53:22 PM | show profile | email poster Creatrix, yes would like to see a copy. e-mail me again and I will give you my mail address. If you think this thread has gone on for a while it's nothing compared to a discussion about file testing and PDF files, proofing etc, that thread could go on for 5 pages. |
