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Topic: Serious questions about a MFA in Creative Writing
| Author | Message |
| paulie_c | Posted – 2/20/2008 3:02:25 AM | show profile I'm at a major crossroads in my life right now, and am considering going to graduate school. The natural inclination was J-school, but I might be having second thoughts about that. My dream is to be a writer -- a novelist and screenwriter, but I honestly don't think I have the chops to be successful. I thought about getting Master's degree in creative writing, but I don't know anyone who has done that, and thus I don't know where a MFA degree will take me down the road. I'm pretty sure I won't be guaranteed to be a good writer once I graduate, and I definitely won't be guaranteed to sell anything. I guess I'm torn between "you only live once, this is your dream, give it a shot" and "you're broke and without direction right now, you'll probably be in the same position, if not worse, when you're done with school in 2 years." I know one thing: I took a few novel-writing classes during my undergrad years, and they turned out to be may favorite classes of all time. I guess my question is: has anyone here pursued (or is pursuing) a graduate degree in creative writing? If so, what are your long term goals, or where has this degree taken you? Also, does it make a difference as far as what school you go to? I feel like there's such a fine line between enjoying life and enjoying life responsibly, and I don't know if this would qualify for the latter. TIA. |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 2/20/2008 4:01:28 AM | show profile My question would be, do you want to go to grad school as a delaying tactic? -- which is a common reason people go to grad school. Personally, I think both a master's in journalism or creative writing are all but worthless unless you want to teach. You certainly don't need a degree to put your butt in a chair and write a screenplay or a novel. Most of the successful novelists and screenwriters I know don't have a MFA. They just sat down and wrote the novel or screenplay in whatever spare time they could find. It seems to me you're going about this backwards. The question isn't -- "Should I get a MFA and what will it do for me?" The question is, "What do you want to do? What are your goals? What is your dream? And only at that point can you decide on the best course of action. |
| aj | Posted – 2/20/2008 7:54:23 AM | show profile IMO, a graduate program in creative writing will pretty much do one thing for you: give you a safe forum in which to practice your craft all the time without feeling guilty. If you're self-motivated you can likely achieve the same goal without shelling out big bucks. An evening course can give you the basics in terms of structure; the rest is up to you. If you're in a financial position to 'take a sabbatical' then by all means, go ahead. It's a wonderful place to explore your skills. But if money's tight and you're going to have to take out a loan to do this, don't do it. Work hard during the day and use your evenings and weekends to pound out your novel or screenplay. No agent in Hollywood or NY lists 'graduate MFA' as criterion for getting your work sold. It's just a safe option because people don't have to answer to anyone (read: relatives) about what you're doing. Everyone is doing the same thing. That aside, all depends on your personal situation. If you're dedicated to writing, then do one thing: write. But you don't have to necessarily pay to do it. You can, in essence, create your own forum by sticking to a structured writing schedule you've created for yourself. ------ Dream Big. Pay the Rent. www.makingitinthecity.com |
| Village Gal | Posted – 2/20/2008 9:26:36 AM | show profile Those were two great replies. I can't add much except that most of the successful writers I know do not have an MFA. One friend has an MFA but it's her drive and persistence and output that sells her work, not her degree. Dont know how you plan to fund this, but it's very expensive, and being in debt can control your life. |
| ISR | Posted – 2/20/2008 10:10:52 AM | show profile I have an MFA---the point is to learn your craft with the expert you choose, in a safe setting with lots of time, and workshops. It gets you nowhere work-wise in the long-term. I've published plenty, even a book, but that has nothing to do with a career. My advice: Go to J school or get a relevant job, hire a teacher or sign up for workshops with someone you admire at a local school like the New School or the 92nd St Y, and hone those skills in every moment of your spare time. The work experience will translate to more in the end, especially if you're pursuing prose. Creative Writing programs are incestuous and useful only for beginners; eventually you have to get your own editing voice set in your head and work from there, alone. |
| rhino writer | Posted – 2/20/2008 11:05:48 AM | show profile If you don't think you have the chops to be successful right now, just practice. Writing gets easier (and usually) better the more you do it. If you need a kick in the butt and a deadline, try doing National Novel Writing Month (nanowrimo.org) which is in November, or their associated Script Frenzy, which starts April 1. Basically, you write a novel/screenplay in 30 days. It probably won't produce a masterpiece (she says from experience, lol), but you'll at least get a first draft and a sense of accomplishment. Then you can go from there. |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 2/20/2008 11:57:12 AM | show profile Also, very few people start with the chops. For most of us, writing a novel or screenplay is like making waffles -- you think the first one or two are great while you're writing them, but end up throwing them away. Think of this as a marathon, not a sprint. This is something you spend a few months or a year figuring out. For most of us, this takes years, and years, and years, during which time the rest of our lifes are still going on. So don't think if you take a time out to get a degree that things will necessarily be any different when that time out is over. --If you don't think you have the chops to be successful right now, just practice. Writing gets easier (and usually) better the more you do it.-- |
| catlondon | Posted – 2/20/2008 1:00:51 PM | show profile I got a grad degree in creative writing and still don't regret it. I did do it to take a break from working, which not everyone can do. That said, agents do follow the people in a lot of these programs and a women in my program got a book deal after signing with an agent who regularly keep in touch with program. She often read sample work from students recommended by the profs (as I was, but she didn't like my work--so sad). Most of the professors you work with will have agents and know publishers and they can help you if they like you and your work well enough. |
| sue ellen mischke | Posted – 2/20/2008 2:49:03 PM | show profile Start by taking creative writing classes at a community college. It will be cheaper and you will find out if you enjoy it, can do it and if it will progress your writing. I have an MA in Eng Lit. I did it because I wanted to be a better writer; nothing makes a better writer than an avid reader. I also took a few MFA classes as electrives. I found them to be somewhat useless and on par with the creative writing classes I took to get my BA in English (writing option). However, I enjoyed the criticism I was pelted with during reviews of my work. I thought that was pretty invaluable, but the actual instruction...not so much. |
| Village Gal | Posted – 2/20/2008 2:55:45 PM | show profile While it may be true that MFA programs can help with referrals to agents, you can certainly land an agent on your own, as I did. Referral or not, the agent has to love your proposal or book. |
| flight risk | Posted – 2/20/2008 3:24:39 PM | show profile Nobody here mentions the one major benefit of an good MFA program. Networking. A number of your classmates will probably make it as writers and/or editors so will be in positions to help you down the line. It would have been nice to be friends with Michael Chabon. Also, if you make it into a top flight program like Iowa or UC Irvine that can open doors if you have a salable product like a novel when you graduate. Agents are always trolling around there for talent. |
| Village Gal | Posted – 2/20/2008 4:35:38 PM | show profile While I'm sure MFA programs offer connections, if you are a working writer, (and living in someplace like NYC) you don't need a expensive program to network and make connections. You can attend conferences and seminars, take continuining ed. classes or workshops, hear editors who come to speak. |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 2/20/2008 4:51:37 PM | show profile I agree. I think a lot of people make book publishing more mysterious than it is. From personal experience, I can tell you that you can land an agent by simply writing a good query letter and then sending them a good book. That's all there is to it. The last reason I would join an MFA program was to make connections, because you can do that yourself in simplier, less expensive, less time-consuming ways. But it's super easy to find the email addresses and names of editors and publishers. And if you can write a compelling email, they'll ask to read your pages. And if they like those pages, they'll ask for more. And once you get to the, "Sure, I'll read it stage," an MFA doesn't matter. --While I'm sure MFA programs offer connections, if you are a working writer, (and living in someplace like NYC) you don't need a expensive program to network and make connections. You can attend conferences and seminars, take continuining ed. classes or workshops, hear editors who come to speak. -- |
| flight risk | Posted – 2/20/2008 9:30:30 PM | show profile I'm not saying it's "the" reason to get an MFA. It's just one perk of going. |
| candylilacs | Posted – 2/20/2008 11:48:08 PM | show profile Well, I'm doing an MFA I'm doing my MFA and I really enjoy it. Not only are you learning about new writing, different kinds of writing but you are also forced to write and think about what you're writing. If you're doing an MFA just to kind of put off the real world, I would say don't do it. If you feel you need two years to devote to your writing and you can do it financially, then do it. Good luck. ------ http://www.mswritesguide.blogspot.com |
| Bleak Spouse | Posted – 2/21/2008 12:55:42 AM | show profile I got the opportunity to ask Tobias Wolff what his opion on MFA creative writing programs. His advice is: don't do it unless you have a full ride. Don't go into debt for it because an MFA degree in writing opens no doors for jobs. And...if you do go in debt for it, when you finish, you'll be forced to find the highest paying job possible to get yourself out of debt. So I didn't listen to him and went into debt to get my masters in creative writing. And I was forced to find the highest paying job I could possibly get instead of doing what I'd like to do, what I used to do, which was editing books. |
| Astera | Posted – 2/21/2008 1:22:20 AM | show profile I'm currently working on my first novel, and I completely understand the inclination to get an MFA. It would be wonderful if I could write full-time and get my novel done and not have to worry about my stupid, mundane day job. But, I think you can get practice and make connections in other ways that don't cost nearly as much as an MFA. I'm writing commercial women's fiction (aka chick lit), and I took MediaBistro's online chick lit seminar with Kristin Harmel. It was enormously helpful and got me to plot out my entire novel and then write the first five chapters in about eight weeks total. It was also a confidence booster. Just recently, I went to a writers' conference sponsored by San Deigo State, and I paid about $40 extra to submit my first 10 pages in advance and then have a one-on-one with a literary agent. I met with someone from HarperCollins who gave me some very helpful feedback and asked me to send her my novel when it was completed. She also said that she might know some literary agents who would be interested in my work. She even gave me an Editor's Choice award! I was able to meet and mingle with other agents and editors, and I gave a 30-second pitch to one agent, who was intrigued. So, although I'm sure an MFA would be helpful for connections and experience, there are alternatives. I did get a master's degree in journalism, and although I don't regret it at all, it hasn't really translated into more income or a better career trajectory for me. Sometimes, having a "name-brand" school (Northwestern) on my resume gets me in the door, but then I have to prove myself like anyone else. However, I loved my program and my parents are helping me pay back my loans. The price was steep, though, so I don't think I could have done it without their support. Anyway, best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do. But sometimes, the most important thing to do is just start writing. PS--I did Nanowrimo one year, and it was a lot of fun. My work in that month was the first, extremely rough draft of what I am working on now. It was definitely good practice. ------ www.adventuresofastera.blogspot.com |
| candylilacs | Posted – 2/21/2008 3:42:27 AM | show profile No Student Loans I was lucky enough to sell my house in SoCal and made a tidy sum. I'm also still working, so I'm not going into debt at all. I've never had a student loan and I greatly appreciated not having that albatross around my neck. So, if you are thinking of going into debt, I would suggest working for at least a year, save some money and then do it. In two years you will either a) want to go get your MFA or b) decide you did just want to put off real life and you have a real life and it's not that bad. Anyway, I don't think it's a bad decision, but I do think jumping into it and not thinking of consequences can be. ------ http://www.mswritesguide.blogspot.com |
| salsera | Posted – 2/21/2008 3:36:13 PM | show profile I have both an MFA in fiction writing and an MA in journalism. I loved getting the MFA, but it didn't get me a writing job. I ended up working in the non-profit sector for two years and then went back to school for the MA. After getting the journalism degree, I ended up in a research job for two years, and later got a position as a writer, which is what I've done full-time for a year. Now I'm considering switching to editing... it is pretty difficult to write all day at work and then go home and work on a novel or short story. The MFA strengthened my writing skills. Also, it will allow me to teach at the college level, which is what I think I want to do eventually. The MA taught me the research skills needed for journalism. Both of the programs I attended gave nice scholarships, so I didn't have to go into debt. Still, I lost a lot of my 20s in school. |
| foodlit | Posted – 2/21/2008 3:50:14 PM | show profile I think it partly depends on what kind of writing you think you want to do. If you plan to write commercial fiction, suspense, women's fiction, etc. then an MFA won't benefit you as much as if you aspire to literary fiction. That's where you're likely to benefit from connections and agents who look at literary mags, etc. Even then, it's a plus, not a must, and expensive, so expensive. This is an interesting blog post on J.A. Konrath's blog...about a conversation he once had with an aspiring writer, Marcus Sakey who was in an MFA program. Konrath advised him to quit, and just write. He did, and sold his book at auction...that book was published, has drawn comparisons to Dennis Lehane, and was optioned to Ben Affeck's company...same team that produced Lehane's Gone, Baby, Gone. Konrath is an entertaining writer, and it's a great post on not needing an MFA....check it out. http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2005/10/cinderella-boy.html |
| catlondon | Posted – 2/21/2008 5:05:33 PM | show profile Of course Marcus whomever had to be in an MFA program to meet Konrath to get the advice to drop out of school. I agree people shouldn't go into debt for an MFA unless they truly want to teach or feel strongly about spending concentrated time writing and communing with other writers, but it does highlight that an MFA program can give you access to people you might not otherwise have access to. The thing my program did for me is that it forced me to finish a fairly ambitious writing project...something I've been unable to accomplish in "the real world." |
| Cait | Posted – 2/21/2008 5:45:07 PM | show profile Education is never a waste... I agree with some of the other posters. Your motivation is an important part of the decision -- if you're not sure whether you're avoiding employment, work for a year while you make the decision. At the same time, you can start saving for further education. Getting some work experience before you jump into grad school will be of enormous benefit when you graduate. I do a lot of career writing, and have heard countless times that graduating with a master's degree but no work experience can make employment very difficult. But I'd like to say that I strongly disagree with the sentiment that education that doesn't yield financial rewards isn't worth having. Education is never a waste of time, especially when it comes to developing your craft. Money is always an issue, but there are ways to make anything happen -- it's called financial management. Part-time studies can make many things possible, as can distance learning. I graduated in 2005 with a BA (political science) and debated J-school. However, after five years of freelancing quite successfully I'm planning on taking a creative writing MFA next year part-time, partially by distance. There are some fantastic programs at reputed universities across the world. And I don't believe that a J-school degree is more useful than an MFA. I have no illusions that an MFA will immediately improve my job prospects (but I'm a freelancer, and don't really care). But I am confident it will improve my writing skills and help me develop the confidence I need to take on more ambitious projects, which will mean greater success in the long term. Ultimately, whatever decision you make, don't be persuaded by the extremists. There are a hundred ways to make something happen. A little strategy and planning go a long way. There's no reason anything has to be all or nothing. |
| foodlit | Posted – 2/21/2008 7:58:29 PM | show profile Honestly, I think an MFA program sounds like absolute heaven. A great break from working, where you can immerse yourself with writing and everything related. Unfortunately though, unless you have a trust fund or some financial situation where you could do this, it is very costly. But, if you could somehow afford to do it....go for it, especially since you enjoyed the writing classes you took previously. You could probably teach somewhere I think with this degree as well. I think that is a common profession for aspiring writers. Sounds like fun to me...gotta love the teaching schedule, with Summers off...you can work on the novel then! :) Pam |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 2/21/2008 8:51:34 PM | show profile In theory, this is fine. In reality, we all have to decide how to allocate our limited resources of time and money. We can't take every class or workshop, can't get every degree, and can't read every book. Getting an MFA may not be a waste of time. But there may be better ways to spend that time and more efficiency ways to develop your craft. --Education is never a waste of time, especially when it comes to developing your craft.-- |
| odh202 | Posted – 2/22/2008 3:38:17 PM | show profile MFA in creative writing If you want to write fiction, go ahead. There's no degree that confers writer status upon you. I don't trust MFA's because they seem so accomplishment oriented. You don't become a "real writer" when you obtain an MFA or become published. One of the reason MFA's have a bad rap is because they're so driven to have their writing published, resulting in market-driven, formulaic writing. I would try to identify some writers you'd like to work with, and contact them directly. I find traditional workshops provide too much feedback to be useful. Working one-on-one is the best way. But writers write, they don't talk about writing. |
