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Topic: "Smart Money" EIC -- avoid!
| Author | Message |
| bjoconnorfla | Posted – 3/20/2008 10:11:11 AM | show profile Over the years the MB BBs have really fallen. While it's always been a place quick to burst into flaming, mostly that was because of the blatant cluelessness and egotism of posters who came here expecting either a handout or some kind of support for their blatant unprofessional attitudes. For a while, experienced pros posted reasoned, helpful advice (such as caitlin, sheila and, I think, myself) but it seems all the pros have gotten sick of these tiresome immature rants -- such as this one. Why the current active posters here even bothered to debate this post is beyond me, but gives a perfect reason why the professional freelancers who are serious about journalism and their careers avoid this BB now. The only intelligent post here is from the writer who notes that, after an editor is nonresponsive, s/he writes back saying, if no response by XX date, I will sell the story elsewhere. A good, sensible business-like approach. The rest of this is needless flame drama from folks who apparently have more time to rant and piss on this BB than assignments on hand. I don?t wonder why. Good luck. |
| snappiness | Posted – 3/20/2008 10:13:57 AM | show profile Hey, that was me who posted that suggestion. Thanks. So, where's a good BB for experienced freelancers? |
| reporterwriter | Posted – 3/20/2008 1:30:59 PM | show profile Thanks, bjoconnor, who used to flame me regularly. |
| reporterwriter | Posted – 3/20/2008 1:38:33 PM | show profile The one good thing I will say about fraternizing here with the great unwashed is that it keeps me in the newbie loop as I teach writers how to freelance. I'm reminded of the frustrations and concerns of beginning writers, which are the far distant past for me but are important for me to remember as I teach. snappiness, I don't know that there are any good BBs left. Even the board at the by-subscription site Freelance Success, which was darned good five years ago, has become overrun with people who don't know how to research or report, who can't tell their ethics from their elbows, and whose highest aspiration is to write for parenting publications. |
| onmyown | Posted – 3/20/2008 2:35:47 PM | show profile Thanks Mumbo Mumbo Jumbo, you hit the nail on the head. Thanks for standing up for overworked editors without assistants. Freelancers, remember that you are essentially selling a product, and a query is an unsolicited sales call. When a telemarketer calls you at home during dinner hour, do you take the time to courteously explain why you don't need the product and how they can make it better? |
| Mirage | Posted – 3/20/2008 2:46:35 PM | show profile Onmyown... Thanks so much! That is quite possibly the best analogy I've heard for this type of situation. I'll be using that in the future. :-) |
| seeattleme | Posted – 3/20/2008 4:18:17 PM | show profile noname. Why do you READ my posts at all if they are so worthless and incoherent???? My concern is over your interest in me. It was provoked by your bizarre obsession with the things I say and the choice of my screen name. Psychoanalysis would be my analysis of this, which I'm not doing. (As I clarified in my other post on another topic which, of course, you read and remembered!?! I mean come on! You gotta admit it's a little WEIRD. If you don't like a ost or a rant, don't read it. Are there people on this board who would rather NOT have information posted than otherwise? I would rather pick and choose the posts I read. I find the rants extremely helpful. They are honest expressions of frustration and often they are justifiable expressions of anger and injustice. SOmetimes they are just Fun To Read. They are Human. They give a business a human face. If I don't like what I'm reading, I usually stop. I don't know why others have trouble doing this. As for being "unprofessional", this is not a place for my professionalism. I don't consider it such. It is a recreational media board. If I can say something that helps someone--work better or just FEEL better-- great. Fine. But this is not a job for me. I am amazed at how people assume what goes on here reflects ANYTHING about ANYONE's career (except for those who post under their real names, of course). This is not my workplace. MB posters are not colleagues and coworkers of mine. Not that I know of, anyway, and I prefer to keep it that way. This is where I go for fun, for information, for venting or relaxing. IN that order. There are professional web sites and boards out there for those mourning the serious Mediabistro days. Romensko, Folio, etc. This is a social board as much as it is a professional one. That's obvious from the topics posted on the forums. It's not Gawker, but it's not Folio or CJR.com, either. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 3/20/2008 4:20:55 PM | show profile And I'm sure freelancers will love the comparison of the telemarketer. And yes, it's true, telemarketers are usually working to pay bills, just like freelancers, have a job to do, and when WOULD you talk to one? However, keep in mind editors NEED freelancers. I don't NEED a telemarketer. And back to the original point, does anyone out there actually believe the EIC of Smart Money does NOT have an assistant? He probably has two. |
| snappiness | Posted – 3/20/2008 7:39:55 PM | show profile I like the telemarketer analogy (and not the "leading question" post on the topic). That's why I refine my pitch so I can do a one-liner, a one paragraph or a one-pager, depending on the situation. What the two have in common is they're both sales. Face it, a huge part of freelancing is sales. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 3/20/2008 9:26:25 PM | show profile Finally, regarding the jeans-wearing staff at hearst: Um, would any of these rebel blue jean wearers show up for an interview as EIC of ANY magazine--let alone Esquire--in blue jeans? Cause that's what this guy, Adam Moss, allegedly did. And they laughed at him then. I doubt they'd laugh at him today--but you'd have to be Adam Moss to pull that off. Ridiculous--what you wear to an interview doesn't matter IF you come to that interview with an armload of the most ceveted awards in the business. If they'd realized--or been able to realize at the time--his potential, they'd have hired him. The rest of us are forced by the lame ass suit worshippers, the "appearance and professionalism is end all" brain dead, to play by these obviously worthless white collar elitist rules. While the truly brilliant--the real iconoclasts---break them. And it's the former that's so jealous of the latter on this board. Hence the attacks, the grammar and spelling corrections, the accusations of unprofessionalism (On a recreational mediabistro board!!!!!Ha Ha Ha! where people post random Thursday questions like what did you eat for lunch today!) and the anger when people post things that the rigid and frigid of the MB "professional" elite don't like to hear. |
| TheSecondShift | Posted – 3/21/2008 12:16:09 AM | show profile There seem to be people who have beef with you, qunester, but the good thing about not being clouded by others' issues is that one can take postings for what they are and not get personal with it. I agree with lots of your points, and don't mind how you say them either. This is the forum to get your frustrations out. If you can't do it with people in the same biz, then where can you go? Even the most seasoned professional can sometimes get annoyed with "How things Work" and if they say they don't I believe they are a liar and a half. Yes, many of us can and do accept The Way Things Work during the 10-6pm cycle, and manage to soldier on. But occasionally there is that day when you just want a place to say "you know what? this business can be crap!" Some of us make the mistake of venting in the wrong place and still, I'm a believer that if someone is truly out of order, they should be called on it--burnt bridge be damned. I'm a stickler for good behavior and don't accept rude editors as a way of life. And nor should they accept rude writers. But there's a way to make your feelings known and know the consequences that may go with it. Freelancing is a choice, yes, and we all know the risk..blah de blah. Doesn't make it less a bitter pill at times. I have the pleasure of being a mother to some great kids by choice, but that doesn't mean I smiled through every second of pregnancy. Same difference. |
| snappiness | Posted – 3/21/2008 6:37:11 AM | show profile SecondShift - what you say makes sense about needing a safe place for the occasional vent about work frustrations. But when that turns into vitriolic and personal attacks on your fellow freelancers, I don't see how that's productive. I'm a little surprised by how much of that is going on in these forums. I've been using MB for years, but just started checking out this section a few weeks ago. And it doesn't really feel like a safe place to talk about work with a potential personal attack looming. I guess the difference is that with my freelancing pals (we have a small lunch group here, one Ellie, one nomination, several nonfiction authors), and we sit around a complain and offer advice, but we sure don't attack each other. We're all on the same team, essentially. And we recognize that editors aren't out to "get" us, scheming on how they can steal our ideas or purposely not calling us back. Some of us have been editors, we know the job is tough. So, even though we're competitive, we're still trying to support each other and be helpful. I'm not really seeing that here. Maybe it's because people are anonymous, I don't know. I just know it's not very productive or helping me move ahead in my profession. |
| Canadiana | Posted – 3/21/2008 8:55:35 AM | show profile I agree about the MB BBs going downhill. I've been on here for less than a year and I'm tiring of reading posts from peeps who bitch & complain and others where the same questions are posted over and over again. Perhaps, for me, it was exciting to find MB and all the great (free) info at first. But, quickly, I realized that people are people wherever you go. I've started checking out the MB Content sections more than the forums at this point. |
| HyancinthGirl | Posted – 3/21/2008 10:59:41 AM | show profile Mumbo, that was an excellent comparison. Please understand, freelancers, that it's not an attack on you when you don't get a response. It's simply too overwhelming in the current climate of journalism to give each and every freelancer a personal response. It's not just as simple as accepting a query (or saying no). It's also negotiating a time frame, developing the story, providing a writer's guide, securing contacts, drawing up the contract, negotiating fees, editing the story, returning it for clarification, sealing the deal, then making sure they get paid. Hell, that's a full-time job in itself! When I worked with freelancers, my staple writers knew it was a no-go when I didn't respond. A lot of pubs, like mine, are also 100% in-house written, which may be a change from a year ago and the lastest Writer's Market. What someone said about the unread emails and 10-hour days was right on. Add to that the weekends and the late-night cram sessions and you have an overworked editor, eic, or ed asst. The publishing world is attempting to keep 1. the best, most productive folks or 2. the cheapest. All of our jobs, especially at smaller pubs, have become four jobs in one. When we don't respond, we're not taking freelancers for granted; we're simply trying to keep our sanity at our own jobs. Assistants maybe exist at large pubs. Freelancers can also turn off whenever they want; any given weekend, my publisher is calling me to cover something on my personal time, even if I'm on vacation. So please, lose this image of editors having the luxury of time to cater to each and every email. It's simply not the case. |
| intraining | Posted – 3/21/2008 11:34:47 AM | show profile Honestly, these all sound like excuses. Nobody is saying you have to compose a lengthy e-mail to each freelancer. A "thanks, but no thanks" will suffice so that the person can move on to the next market. Editors are not the only busy people in the world. I know lots of corporate executives who are doing WAY more than any editor and they still find time to answer my e-mails, even if it's only two lines. Get over yourselves. |
| HyancinthGirl | Posted – 3/21/2008 11:44:01 AM | show profile It is very clear to me that this will never be resolved in this forum. Rant on. |
| caitlinkelly | Posted – 3/21/2008 11:50:56 AM | show profile Where can you go to to talk to/with seasoned freelancers? The ASJA phorums (open only to members) is one option; they are much less aggressive than before. It's clear that few very experienced freelancers hang out here -- if you're that busy making good money (i.e. finding and nurturing the relationships -- and that's the key word -- with editors, agents and others who need good work), who's got the time? It's also a question of wasted energy; like BBelinda and bjoconnor (and we all go back more than three or four years here), those of us in our 40s and up who've punched our tickets with multiple high-level journalism jobs, find repeating the same 4 basic principles to shrieking, freaking-out newbies is not that interesting, no matter your basic altruism. Networking with a handful of savvy colleagues we know to be smart, capable, generous and reliable, is what we do instead. I continue to visit these boards for useful industry information (rare), amusement (sometimes), insight, camaraderie -- and when I can, to be helpful. But my board work with ASJA now takes precedence and the contacts I have made there almost always obviate the issues addressed here -- when you find people you know and like and trust, you share your high-level contacts with editors with them. We usually don't work wth ^%$$###s because we know who they are and warn one another -- privately -- away from them. This week, one friend passed me to their agent and I had an answer on my book proposal within minutes. That's how the game is played, and yelling and shouting and publicly naming names of people who pissed you off along the way (we've all faced many of them, many times) isn't going to get you where you want to go. Once your life has included a few crises -- your own health dramas, even hospitalization, or a seriously-ill loved one, you might also develop some perspective and begin to understand that someone not returning your call or email is, in the scheme of things, not that big a deal and they, too, just might be in the middle of their own stuff. When you are freelance, your only true freedom is to radically rethink whatever is making you crazy -- and run your business differently. The business will not change. You have to. There are many magazines and editors out there to work with and FREAKING OUT over the actions (or inaction) of one person is a waste of energy. The OP has provoked much discussion. I feel sorry that no one ever mentored or taught them how to do things right. If they did, and this OP wasn't listening, c'est la vie. |
| bjoconnorfla | Posted – 3/21/2008 1:13:58 PM | show profile | email poster @ caitlin: Thoughtful and considered words, as usual. Can you send me your current contact info when you get a chance? @ BBelinda: I don't recall your postings, but if I sent an undeserved scorching your way, I apologize. But pls. tell me you weren't the clueless girl who wanted to know if she could quote info from a press release! |
| recovering_jersey_girl | Posted – 3/21/2008 2:59:29 PM | show profile A sliver lining to the sniping... This thread made me think of a relationship I have with an editor. She's not a great communicator: tends to touch base when she needs something THISMINUTE and not before, heavy on the criticism without a lot of direction, etc. And when this thread kicked off, I was sort of in a similar position as OP with regard to her: she'd told me she wanted me to write something for her, didn't give many specifics and then just kind of dropped the communication chain. I emailed her a couple of times, had gotten no follow-up and was getting sort of frustrated. So, I followed the advice the seasoned folks on here so often give the newbies: I picked up the phone. I'd done some research beforehand and developed a story idea I could pitch (since her earlier emails had been so scattered I wasn't sure whether she had an assignment in mind for me or not). Got her on the line (got her vmail first - did NOT leave a message but simply tried again later) and tossed out my pitch. You guessed it - assignment! Thanks for Caitlin and BJ and all the others who continue to give sage advice on here - even some of us who have been doing this for a while sometimes need a "nudge" to get on the phone and go after an elusive assignment. |
| bjoconnorfla | Posted – 3/21/2008 3:12:32 PM | show profile I also like to call, but NEVER leave voicemail unless it is something you need to have on the record to cover you're butt. If it's a pitch, just call until you get them on the line. I make it apoint to call at different ttimes of the day, esp. first thing (8 am) or toward the end of the day when they are more likely to be at their desk and not in meetings. A lot of times, if you have their ext. or direct # and call after 5, sometimes they even pick up their own phones. |
| InsomniacNOT | Posted – 3/21/2008 4:02:29 PM | show profile It's amazing how much agony can be ended by picking up the phone. And yet there's such reluctance to do it. I'm going to start a new thread. |
| TheSecondShift | Posted – 3/21/2008 4:13:29 PM | show profile See, I think the problem is that there's so much advice on both sides of that coin. There are so many editors who say "Don't call me! I can't process your pitch over the phone!" or "Don't call me! I'm too busy to answer the phone." or "Don't call me, email me, if I am interested I'll respond." Honestly, I've been in the game many years and I still have to figure out which way is up with a new editor. I only pick up the phone with people I have a relationship with and those relationship more often than not started from an email. I think each person does have to decide what to do for themselves and there are times I do think the "nothing ventured, nothing gained" attitude works. It's amazing how much agony can be ended by picking up the phone. And yet there's such reluctance to do it. I'm going to start a new thread. |
| caitlinkelly | Posted – 3/21/2008 8:34:22 PM | show profile I recently took the risk of calling an editor, who was seeking freelancers and to whom I'd sent a resume and cips...I had no clue how he might react. We talked for more than half an hour and I got a really good understanding of what he needs. The worst that can happen is -- after you ask if it's a good time to talk -- they are nasty and rude and then you've saved yourself a whole lot of trouble because do you really want to work with someone like that? No matter how rare, it's a terrific thing, if you're comfortable on the phone, to be able to speak to someone and get a real feel for their personality -- and they for yours. People typically prefer to work with those they like and trust; all the emails in the world can't have the same power as a shared insight or laugh in real-time by phone. |
| reporterwriter | Posted – 3/22/2008 11:33:58 PM | show profile >>But pls. tell me you weren't the clueless girl who wanted to know if she could quote info from a press release!<< Huh? Good grief, no, that wasn't me, bj. What other clueless things would you like to check out against me? |
| reporterwriter | Posted – 3/22/2008 11:37:26 PM | show profile P.S. Do you appear to be a pompous idiot for asking me something so moronic? Oh, yes, you do. |
