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Topic: Rules for criticizing specific editors here?
| Author | Message |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 11:24:47 AM | show profile I'm just curious before I launch myself into uncharted waters on this forum - what are the basic rules for criticizing edtitors and/or publishers over your business and work situations with them as a freelancer? I haven't read through many threads that are close to what I want to pursue in MB on this topic, but it seems like many are either couched in generalities, so that the location/ID of the publication and editor remain unknown although the events were real enough. Or there are outright criticisms of a publisher's general business practices, specifically naming a publisher, but these usually don't seem to get into the one-on-one history between the writer and the publisher or editor. So what are the rules that MB asks members here to observe on this, and what are the liability issues out there to be aware of in what you choose to say or avoid saying if you do get specific? Yes, this does involve and editor I have some comments on, their business and editorial and interactive agendas with outside contributors. And no, it's obviously not going to be complimentary. Far from it. |
| getmeoutofhere | Posted – 4/10/2008 11:33:43 AM | show profile use common sense. |
| fredtryle | Posted – 4/10/2008 11:41:25 AM | show profile just my opinion I think fraud, nonpayment, etc., is legitimate to call out directly and specifically, as a service to others. But even then, there's two sides to a story and we're only hearing one of them. |
| foodlit | Posted – 4/10/2008 11:45:52 AM | show profile I think it's foolish to name names here. If you want to get that specific, email someone off-line. General rule of thumb is don't put anything on a public board that you wouldn't mind everyone seeing, including the person you said it about and your own name. If you are going to name names, then you should put your own real name out there as well instead of hiding behind an anonymous one. Just my opinion though. |
| chucho | Posted – 4/10/2008 11:49:08 AM | show profile #1.) Sounds like it's charting waters of potential libel. #2.) You have to recognize that nobody knows who you are of from where your motives originate, especially the owners of this website who could be sued for libel for things that appear on this board. #3.) On top of that, ripping into somebody from behind an anonymous monicker is in bad form and adds to the concerns expressed in #2. No. 3 reminds me of one of Pranay's Principles (http://www.pranaygupte.com/principles.html): "Avoid anonymous quotes, especially 'attack quotes.'" |
| Nikongirl | Posted – 4/10/2008 12:28:46 PM | show profile Don't do it... It would be inappropriate to name your editor after a personal beef with them. What purpose would it serve? The editor you want to trash might be a great friend with other editors you work with and whoopsie; there goes the possibility of working with those editors as well. Frankly, it just makes you look bad. Other editors may not want to work with you if you are going to drag out personal problems on a public message board. And trust me, word gets out, we all have friends. |
| mb_greg | Posted – 4/10/2008 12:30:27 PM | show profile | email poster That's an excellent question, oceanvue, and I'm glad you raised it before you posted anything. There are no hard and fast rules, but I can offer everyone three general guidelines to consider before posting criticisms. If you follow these, you're much less likely to cause headaches for the object of your criticism, mediabistro.com, and most importantly, yourself. 1. Stick to the facts Describe what happened without resorting to ad hominem attacks or speculation. GOOD "I submitted my article on Jan. 20 and have followed up five times regarding payment, but they have not responded." BAD "Those lying, thieving so-and-sos refuse to pay me. A friend of a friend told me they blew all their funding on hookers and drugs and are about to shut down and run away to Mexico." 2. Don't get personal Stay away from naming individuals unless it's absolutely necessary. Again, you'll have to use your own judgment as to what's absolutely necessary, but I can tell you that whenever we have gotten complaints from companies about threads on our forums, it has usually been because an individual was attacked (often in ways that violated Rule No. 1) We'll generally stand behind any post that doesn't violate our Terms of Service, even in the face of complaints, but like I said, you also have to consider your own interests. As far as I know, no one has been sued for libel based on a forum post since I've been working here, but we have had a few threats, and it was usually for attacks that really could have been toned down without losing any of their value. Which brings me to my last guideline: 3. Think about why you're posting It's great to use these forums for advice or information sharing, but if the point of your post is simply to settle a score or embarrass an individual or company, you're probably better off venting privately to your friends. I hope this was helpful. Please let me know if you have any other questions. P.S. As I was typing my response, I see that chucho posted a much shorter version saying essentially the same thing. I especially agree with the last part about anonymous sniping just being a bad thing to do. ------ Greg Membership Director mediabistro.com |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 12:33:28 PM | show profile ""I think fraud, nonpayment, etc., is legitimate to call out directly and specifically, as a service to others. But even then, there's two sides to a story and we're only hearing one of them." fredtryle - yes, non-payment was certainly one issue. However there were other issues I wanted to get into both in a specific way and a general way about editors and their practices in dealing with outside contributors. One side of the story? Of course. |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 12:40:57 PM | show profile "I think it's foolish to name names here. If you want to get that specific, email someone off-line. General rule of thumb is don't put anything on a public board that you wouldn't mind everyone seeing, including the person you said it about and your own name. If you are going to name names, then you should put your own real name out there as well instead of hiding behind an anonymous one." foodlit - as I said, I haven't read huge amounts of controvery in threads about specific editors and/or publishers on MB up to this point. However, even within that limited amount I see names named - take for instance Meredith Publishing? There was quite a thread about them many months ago. I'm sure there other similar examples. You cite naming my own name - as though this would necessarily give me pause. I'll leave aside the fact that MB has given me and you the option not ever to give out our legal name if we so choose not to, and in any situation. The irony is that you're trying to raise an issue of "fairness" when in point of fact it's fairness itself in editorial practice and conduct that I have points to discuss. Actually, I believe the playing field is perfectly level however I choose to identify myself or not, and MB has clearly thought these potential issues about online posting situations through very carefully before allowing the technical capabilities we have as members. |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 12:46:53 PM | show profile "It would be inappropriate to name your editor after a personal beef with them." Nikongirl - perhaps it's inappropriate of YOU to accuse someone of pursuing a "personal beef" when you have no idea whatsoever of the situation or what you're talking about. In any respect. So the rest of what you have to say is also irrelevant here. |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 12:52:01 PM | show profile ""#1.) Sounds like it's charting waters of potential libel. #2.) You have to recognize that nobody knows who you are of from where your motives originate, especially the owners of this website who could be sued for libel for things that appear on this board. #3.) On top of that, ripping into somebody from behind an anonymous monicker is in bad form and adds to the concerns expressed in #2."" Chucho - all of which is either misinformation, disinformation or pure personal opinion on your part. Libel - they have to hire an attorney, get the court order, file the complaint. Very time consuming and upfront expensive. But wait - does it even arise to "libel" to speak what you know as the facts? Hardly. The owners of this website could be sued for libel - wrong. That would be tossed out faster than stale food. The Communications Decency Act or whatever that's called completely indemnifies them. For instance, on eBay you can slam someone with every name in the book when you buy/sell, and do it anonymously. Same situation as what you're describing (although it's not my intention). But anyway, eBay is in no way liable for defamations or damages to their members due to comments perceived or real. |
| noname1234 | Posted – 4/10/2008 12:56:29 PM | show profile What is the purpose of the post you'd like to make? Are you viewing it as community service -- warning others about illegal/unethical behavior? The problem I have with those kinds of warnings is that I don't know who you are. If the warning came from a regular poster here whose comments I generally view to be fair, that would be one thing. But coming from a poster who's screenname I don't recognize? I personal would take that warning with a grain of salt. I also think that if you're going to go after an individual by name on a public forum, you have an obligation to reveal your own name. The reason MB allows anonymous posting isn't, I would imagine, to clear the road to secretly lash out those who you feel have done you wrong. If it's a situation of a contract being violated, could you approach the BBB or small claims court, as others have suggested? |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 1:00:48 PM | show profile "2. Don't get personal Stay away from naming individuals unless it's absolutely necessary. Again, you'll have to use your own judgment as to what's absolutely necessary, but I can tell you that whenever we have gotten complaints from companies about threads on our forums, it has usually been because an individual was attacked (often in ways that violated Rule No. 1)" mb_greg - Naming the individual is just as necessary as naming the publication concerned, or we are talking in generalisms that carry no point. Yes, it's possible to both stick to the facts and incidents while also citing the parties concerned. Do you know about Angela's "Whispers & Warnings" on a certain other writer's website? What I'm discussing may very well get posted over there as well. I'm weighing my options. By your own account, the complaints and threats you've received from "companies" have thus far only amounted to bluster and bluff. Such is modern American life - a rather nasty game of poker, and sad and time-consuming that it turns out that way too often - but obviously also I feel strongly about the issues I have in mind and intend to air them in an honest and forthright way. I do believe every journalist can keep learning from the variables out there in terms of what we encounter. Just as you think you've seen or experienced it all, something comes out of left field you never imagined to have to deal with. So there is knowledge too to be mined from others' misfortune. |
| rhino writer | Posted – 4/10/2008 1:16:14 PM | show profile So if you're refuting everyone's opinion, why are you asking? |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 1:21:14 PM | show profile I'm not refuting everyone's opinion at all - in fact I got a few valid responses and insights about MB that I'll keep in mind. |
| PluckyPane | Posted – 4/10/2008 1:30:53 PM | show profile oceanvue, you need to get a life. you're creating a buzz about a posting that you may or may not write. if you have such problems with this editor and/or publication, why don't you take it to a more appropriate site like the editor's boss or an ethics committee. doing a public service announcement on an anonymous board about someone who has done you dirty smacks of cowardly and immature. it also doesn't give the editor/publication a chance to respond to your so called comments on their business and editorial agendas. surely there is some freelancer association that you can go complain to. |
| fredtryle | Posted – 4/10/2008 1:42:10 PM | show profile oceanvue, Your replying to / rebutting EVERY response you get here makes you seem less credible to me. There are two sides (at least) to every conflict, and the attitude you covey here makes me think you're not so clear on your own side of it. I hope you'll stay focused on the positives rather than the negatives. |
| Nikongirl | Posted – 4/10/2008 1:49:05 PM | show profile >>>Nikongirl - perhaps it's inappropriate of YOU to accuse someone of pursuing a "personal beef" when you have no idea whatsoever of the situation or what you're talking about. In any respect. So the rest of what you have to say is also irrelevant here.<<< Geez Oceanvue, you asked for opinions, I was just trying to be helpful and you turn around and attack me. WTF? Still sounds like it is a personal beef, no matter what you say, you are very combative on this board already and you are the one asking for help. How 'bout you take your little battle elsewhere? |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 1:51:03 PM | show profile "..if you have such problems with this editor and/or publication, why don't you take it to a more appropriate site like the editor's boss or an ethics committee. doing a public service announcement on an anonymous board about someone who has done you dirty smacks of cowardly and immature. it also doesn't give the editor/publication a chance to respond to your so called comments on their business and editorial agendas." Wrong. Go and read what mb_greg has written above and you can see that dealt with correctly, MB is a perfectly appropriate venue to discuss situations with specific publishers. And has been done - now that I hear from others by email in the past hour or so - in numerous instances on MB over the years. If you read further what mb_greg writes, you can ascertaidn that there has been plenty of response to initial subject posts about editor/publishers, so no - it's not at all a case of "poor-poor editor can't respond. ..." They do, and volubly, and frequently make veiled legal threats. Then again, you might also want to speculate that this might be a situation where someone doesn't care about the supposed consequences. Rights are also equal in a legal venue, and rarely does one party emerge totally undamaged. Again, I'm weighing my options. |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 1:56:40 PM | show profile "Your replying to / rebutting EVERY response you get here makes you seem less credible to me." Ah - so now it's also a case of prejudging as well as misconstruing something that I haven't even come close to broaching the specifics of? Well, you have one thing right. I won't bother to post further on a topic that is jumped on with major misconceptions, assumptions, and general nastiness. |
| PluckyPane | Posted – 4/10/2008 2:03:21 PM | show profile do what you want then. name names, publications, and specifics. don't forget to sign it with your full and legal name so the "field is leveled." |
| foodlit | Posted – 4/10/2008 2:05:43 PM | show profile Oceanvue, I'm really not sure why you asked for opinions on this as you seem to be discounting what everyone has said, and interestingly we all seem to be saying the same thing! Most importantly I think it's incredibly inappropriate and cowardly to name names and not reveal your own. MediaBistro has given us the option to have a username, but the intent was never to promote this kind of potential attack. I've posted my own name on this site many times for instance. Not to do so, especially if you plan to post someone else's name is just being a coward. Of course, just my opinion, you will do what you will. |
| Nikongirl | Posted – 4/10/2008 2:15:58 PM | show profile FYI Oceanvue >>>Well, you have one thing right. I won't bother to post further on a topic that is jumped on with major misconceptions, assumptions, and general nastiness.<<< You are the one that has been nasty to just about everyone who tried to help. So yeah, why don't you troll some other board with your nasty attitude - oh and your problem with your editor/publication too. I am beginning to see why you have a problem with your editor now. |
| Nikongirl | Posted – 4/10/2008 2:22:37 PM | show profile and furthermore... >>>now that I hear from others by email in the past hour or so.<<< Tell me Oceanvue, how exactly did you hear from others by email in the last hour when you never enabled your email? |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 2:39:05 PM | show profile "I'm really not sure why you asked for opinions on this as you seem to be discounting what everyone has said, and interestingly we all seem to be saying the same thing! Most importantly I think it's incredibly inappropriate and cowardly to name names and not reveal your own. MediaBistro has given us the option to have a username, but the intent was never to promote this kind of potential attack." foodlit - one last thing about this. I f you go back and read *accurately* what I have written, I began by openly asking for opinions on what is allowable on this site. I also never stated categorically that I would run off and start posting "attack" (your description) on any editor or publisher. That was your assumption again. I also stated that there were valid things that people had pointed out, mainly mb_greg, that were factual and helpful while also remaining neutral. So in other words I'm not discounting at all what everyone has said, and no - not everyone has said the same thing. I finally stated that I was weighing my options. Maybe others should do likewise before blasting away at someone whose situation and circumstances they know naught about. I won't go into definitions of "cowardly" and "inapprorpriate" here because again, as someone has rightly pointed out there *are* two sides to every story, and you might be surprised if you knew both and then realized where inappropriateness and cowardliness really lies. |
