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Topic: Rules for criticizing specific editors here?
| Author | Message |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 4/10/2008 2:59:13 PM | show profile I would guess I am like most people here in that I have no idea what MB's rules on posting are, and that doesn't influence anything I post here. More likely, most people don't name specific editors because they are afraid that will allow the editor or someone else to figure out the identity of the poster, and he could harm them in some way. Probably not a libel suit, as much as sully their reputation. |
| foodlit | Posted – 4/10/2008 3:21:40 PM | show profile Oceanvue, You asked for opinions. We offered them, and then you argued with us about our opinions. That's what's confusing here. It's fine if you don't agree with our opinions, but don't get all defensive and irritable...you asked for our opinions and we gave them to you. Sorry that you didn't get the answers you were looking for. Carry on.... |
| HisGirlFriday | Posted – 4/10/2008 3:27:38 PM | show profile Now is the moment when I hear the cuckoo clock chiming in the background ..... |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 3:30:02 PM | show profile Foodlit, I apologize to you or anyone else that thinks I was being either irritable or overly defensive. It wasn't my intent, however I've been internalizing a situation for several months that has got me wrought up. Which I realize intellectually is ridiculous of me to allow to happen, but then I weigh the incident against the fact of having dealt with multiple editors in various publications for so many years and never running into this type of outfit and situation. That's all. So it may have been some misdirected frustration. When you're living the solitary life of a freelancer without adequate support systems - things take on more of a life than they should otherwise do even if the circumstances that are bothering you are unjust. It's known as losing perspective, which can happen even if you have the most valid of reasons to be incensed. |
| Nikongirl | Posted – 4/10/2008 4:01:49 PM | show profile Thank you Oceanvue We were only trying to help. It could be said that we have all had issues with editors, publications and practices concerning the freelance life. I go ballistic if I am forced to beg for money I earned. |
| PluckyPane | Posted – 4/10/2008 4:01:53 PM | show profile ugh. anger, denial, now bargaining. you know, no cares if you vent about the situation. in fact a lot of us can help. but everyone has been ultra clear about you potentially revealing names. it would be idiotic on your part to want to do that, and attacking those whom you specifically asked advice from is just bad form, anonymously or not. so if you want help for the internal problem you're facing, vent away. just keep it generic. how hard is that? |
| RockinRonD | Posted – 4/10/2008 4:39:47 PM | show profile | email poster Persaonlly, I don't care if you post your real name here or not; but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in exactly who the editor is who acted unprofessionally, along with the magazine he/she works for. If you're brave enough to out a mean, dastardly editor all of us should avoid, then by all means fire away. Ultimately, we'd all be better off for it. But you're a braver man than I. As much as I've had the same experience (in more ways than I'd care to admit), it's still a small world in magazine publishing. Caveat Emptor. |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 5:00:00 PM | show profile >>ugh. anger, denial, now bargaining. you know, no cares if you vent about the situation. in fact a lot of us can help. but everyone has been ultra clear about you potentially revealing names. it would be idiotic on your part to want to do that, and attacking those whom you specifically asked advice from is just bad form, anonymously or not. how hard is that?<< Perhaps you should (a) follow your own advice, although so far you personally never gave any true advice except under the pretext of posting in response you immediately began attacking ("...get a life..."/"attacking those whom..."). Clue here: practice as you preach - live by a golden rule and then perhaps you won't get back your own medicine if it's unpleasant, simple as that. (b) revealing names? Maybe your reading skills are so abysmal that you cannot make out I have stated now *several* times that I'm weighing my options about exactly what to do - so don't jump down my throat with rules *you* concoct and deem is the regulation around here. Think otherwise? Then I invite you directly to contact mb_greg about it so he can refute himself on what he already stated about the legal aspects of posting anything specific on these boards. How hard is that indeed! Oh, and when you do so don't forget to ask him for my real, legal name and give him yours to forward me? -- you know. so it's a "level playing field and real names are important"? |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 5:09:30 PM | show profile "Persaonlly, I don't care if you post your real name here or not; but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in exactly who the editor is who acted unprofessionally, along with the magazine he/she works for. If you're brave enough to out a mean, dastardly editor all of us should avoid, then by all means fire away. Ultimately, we'd all be better off for it. But you're a braver man than I. As much as I've had the same experience (in more ways than I'd care to admit), it's still a small world in magazine publishing." You are so totally right - but that cuts both ways. Especially with new first-time editors who think their ***it don't stink, who were former freelancers themselves not that many months past (although speaking of denial, they will lie about that too), who now use the word "freelancer" as though they mean to say "dirt". The funny part of it is - and that everyone way overlooks here - is that today's editor can be tomorrow's freelancer back on the street and working it hard - and today's freelancer can have the window office the day after. Another reason to follow the golden rule, but once the golden rule is broken then a lesson needs to be taught in the meanwhile to the unprofessional and dishonest. |
| PluckyPane | Posted – 4/10/2008 5:20:13 PM | show profile i'm not the one who is trying to get sympathy for what some big, bad editor did to me. i attacked you because you attacked people whose opinions i value when they gave you good, honest advice to what you asked. i was ready, willing, and able to listen to you and offer advice about what to do, in generic terms, but you had to keep attacking. then you come out with some woe-is-me, i'm so isolated story and want sympathy. i offered you my opinion to keep it anonymous, so do whatever you want. but if you keep attacking people who were being nice, then i have the right to attack back. and for the record: paul binder of advent communications |
| seeattleme | Posted – 4/10/2008 5:26:06 PM | show profile Chances are, if you name a name and there are serious libel concerns, it'll be taken off the board. I would use this board --which has an anonymous format for a reason, I imagine-- to get general opinions on general issues. Which means, since those you are asking don't have a lot of the specifics or the circumstances, you're going to get a lot of , uh, non-applicable advice. To get specific advice, you need to be specific about the issue , and you can't do that in a public forum without revealing details that will identify you or the party to whom you are referring. There's nothing wrong with venting on this baord. Vent away. And most here are happy to offer well-meaning advice. Sure, some posters get nasty and defensive at the get-go about certain issues (Editors suck, writers ignore deadlines, freelancers never get paid, editors steal ideas, etc.) And that's fine because if someone gets defensive it only means they are personalizing the issue, tranferring their situation to your problem, and that they really care (have strong feelings about) the issue you are raising. But you have to pick and choose which advice you listen to and which advice you ignore. The personal attacks --I would just ignore them altogether. It's tempting to bite back, and if you do, whatever, we're all human. But don't expect anyone on this baord to be specifically helpful (that way it's a pleasant surprise when a poster is). I wouldn't name names. Even if you don't, I can't say 100 per cent that your identity is protected on this board or anywhere else. Pillow talk, party talk, people compare notes. If someone wants to find out who you are they can, with the help of a good computer geek. The above advice about not posting anything here you wouldn't want your name attached to is probably the best advice. I have to say, It's too bad there isn't a private board out there, people can register to, login, and compare specifics. I think it would clean up this business if the unprofessional in it were outed more often among those who don't gather at parties and compare notes about colleagues and industry names and namemakers. ah, to dream... |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 5:33:00 PM | show profile >>i'm not the one who is trying to get sympathy for what some big, bad editor did to me. i attacked you because you attacked people whose opinions i value when they gave you good, honest advice to what you asked. i was ready, willing, and able to listen to you and offer advice about what to do, in generic terms, but you had to keep attacking. then you come out with some woe-is-me, i'm so isolated story and want sympathy. i offered you my opinion to keep it anonymous, so do whatever you want. but if you keep attacking people who were being nice, then i have the right to attack back.<< Riiiight, sure you did. Ditto I have the right to defend myself, and no I wasn't "attacking", obviously you imagine if you repeat your fiction enough times it becomes the truth. Oh, and for the record I certainly wasn't seeking "sympathy" and certainly not from you - so does your response mean you're afraid to grow a pair and ask greg about your made-up "rules"? Have a nice evening meanwhile! |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 5:43:00 PM | show profile qunester - >>There's nothing wrong with venting on this baord. Vent away. And most here are happy to offer well-meaning advice. Sure, some posters get nasty and defensive at the get-go about certain issues (Editors suck, writers ignore deadlines, freelancers never get paid, editors steal ideas, etc.) And that's fine because if someone gets defensive it only means they are personalizing the issue, tranferring their situation to your problem, and that they really care (have strong feelings about) the issue you are raising. But you have to pick and choose which advice you listen to and which advice you ignore.<< This is probably the most pertinent thing anyone's said to me so far, as far as my situation, and what it's morphed into in this thread is a distortion due to the scenario and motives you've outlined here. But thank you greatly for saying it. I know exactly which advice I'll ignore - and it's from the vindictive ones who are fearful of a situation like mine they're projecting due to their own probable dirty career laundry of back-stabbing and double-dealing they'd prefer to remain covered up for legal reasons of their own. I too wish there was a forum like you describe where genuine writers and people who empathize with the writer's lfe rather than attacking/mocking it could speak freely and honestly so that others could avoid similar situations with certain editors. |
| noname1234 | Posted – 4/10/2008 6:12:11 PM | show profile This topic has been discussed AD NAUSEUM on these boards. My final thought is this: If people REALLY want a public forum where they can anonymously bitch about who done them wrong, then they have to accept that they could be on the receiving end of such a bitch session too. How would you feel if you were a freelance writer who had some kind of conflict with an editor, and the editor -- anonymously -- posted a diatribe online identifying you by name and describing how terrible you were to work with, etc. Would you honestly feel OK about that and think that that was an appropriate way for the editor to deal with her complaints about you? |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 6:24:27 PM | show profile noname, the only problem with that notion is that it overlooks the existing power equation and unlevel playing field in the first place. What editor has a need to run onto a forum to genuinely feel that is the only venue they have to assert their case? They already asserted their case through their control of the real bottom line elsewhere - namely to abuse, lie, act in any underhanded or deceitful manner of their choosing since they would never be held to account on it in their corporate context. But wait, I'm supposed to be worrying about how I would feel in a hypothetical situation and ignore the real one, and worry about the more powerful party's feelings ahead of mine? I think not. And therein lies the "free" in freelancer - however much spoken of with disdain, they don't hold all the cards yet. That's what infuriates and strikes fear into some people - that the field isn't 100 percent tilted in their direction and favor. Boo-hoo. |
| JackieRo | Posted – 4/10/2008 6:50:43 PM | show profile Oceanvue, a while back I had some issues that I discussed here. I'm not a freelancer. Still I got a lot of great information from the great folks here including freelance writers and staff. If you instead listen to what they are saying instead of being defensive they can give you some great information that will probably help in your situation. Please don't attack my post, I am only trying to tell you how I see their reactions to your posts. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 4/10/2008 7:37:12 PM | show profile ANYONE (yes, all in caps, eat me)who has been in this business for a substantial period of time (two years in NYC) HAS been on the receiving end of a bitch session, believe me. Can someone please explain to me why posters who are "bothered" by venting and complaining continue to read these posts? It's like, they actually go OUT of their way to read and respond to them. It was clear from the get-go this was a vent post. A bizarre psychology at work. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 4/10/2008 7:51:47 PM | show profile oh and by the way, you won't believe some of the things I've heard --from assistants and junior editors--that industry people have said about me. Not to my face, of course, but at parties and Dis and Discourses, in interviews, etc. I've been called a dyke (I wouldn't care except that an editor claimed I came on to my interns. I'm maried and have kids), racist, a boyfriend stealer (I've had the same boyfriend for 20 years), a slut, rich (I come from foster care), a meth addict "because I'm thin and eat a lot of sugar "(I've never even smoked pot and I'm a marathon runner). That's just the PERSONAL stuff. Now, these are all women and these are all women's magazines, and a very small group of which, so I'm not saying this goes on across the board, but people in clusters gossip, and if you work around them or with them or ever had, you're being gossiped about. Fortunately, the reason I hear this stuff is that there are so many I have helped, who know me well and know the truth, and are offended when people say this stuff about me. So yes, I think a board that outs unprofessional behavior--kind of like unions are responsible for doing--would be a wonderful idea for people like freelancers who do not have the protections employees have. Once more and more staffers are laid off, they will see for themselves how imporatnt it is to have rights (and resources) as a self employed individual. I'm going to stop because I'm pretty sure some poster will accuse me of being oceanvue and thus agreesing with myself. I do wonder, though, why are these complaints about editors SO prevalent? There are prevalent complaints about freelancers and writers on the board as well, of course, but these are awfully persistent. The best defense against malignment is to ensure you have friends in the business by treating people well , treating them professionally, being fair, and confronting unacceptable behavior. If youa re worried some writer you've screwed will come on and post a diatribe on this board, you ought to consider why that possibility is such a threatening scenario. |
| westsidestory | Posted – 4/10/2008 11:24:29 PM | show profile HisGirlFriday: I think this is the time on Sprockets when we dance. |
| oceanvue | Posted – 4/10/2008 11:28:35 PM | show profile >>I do wonder, though, why are these complaints about editors SO prevalent? There are prevalent complaints about freelancers and writers on the board as well, of course, but these are awfully persistent. The best defense against malignment is to ensure you have friends in the business by treating people well , treating them professionally, being fair, and confronting unacceptable behavior. If youa re worried some writer you've screwed will come on and post a diatribe on this board, you ought to consider why that possibility is such a threatening scenario.<< qunester, thank you again and even more for being that frank about what transpires too often within the publishing world. |
| UGoGirl | Posted – 4/11/2008 12:15:12 AM | show profile Please, just go ahead and shoot yourself in the foot, burn your bridges, etc. It sounds like you are determined to engage in some self-destructive behavior, far be it for anyone in this forum to stop you. I'm ready for your story. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 4/11/2008 12:39:17 AM | show profile Ugo, as I have said repeatedly on this board, the best writers in this business have burned bridges. The halls of great journalism echo with tales of journalists and editors and publishers and presidents who have battled each other, threatened each other, quit and then rehired each other. Graydon Carter made a career out of burning bridges with Tina Brown and Conde Nast--look where he is now. Jann Wenner could write a bible-size book about every writer he has threatened to kill/has threatened to kill him (actually a book has been written, titled The History of Rolling Stone). Some of these writers are editing publications like Sports Illustrated and writing for the New York Times and the New Yorker. I personally have watched these feuds waged and evaporate the second one of the two parties involved experiences any success. And that usually happens with great writers and great editors. Read Alan Richman's latest offering and get HIS take on editors. Alan Richman has won every award there is, including twelve--count them, 12--national magazine award nominations. A Pulitzer nominee friend of mine threatened to beat the shit out of his boss just yesterday. He does mob stories. If you are worried about burning bridges, you are in the wrong business and chances are you will do much solid good work but never anything great, because you are obviously afraid to rock the boat, take chances, and piss people off. Especially people in power who happen to be signing your paycheck and are no doubt a lot dummer than you are. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 4/11/2008 12:51:09 AM | show profile oh and Graydon Carter was joined by his buddy Kurt Anderson. Obviously another man who was blackballed for "shooting himself in the foot" by satirizing Conde Nast and criticizing Tina Brown. Yep. those bridges were burned, I'd say. No hope for that loser who "shot himself in the foot". Funny. he ain't hobblin much these days, in between New Yorker articles, New York assignments, and mega buck book contracts. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 4/11/2008 12:52:34 AM | show profile And let's not forget the loser who said, "I don't burn bridges, I nuke them!" That would be Keith Olberman. |
| noname1234 | Posted – 4/11/2008 12:52:44 AM | show profile quenster, a handful of top writers and top editors in this industry may have earned the latitude to behave like hotheads. Those of us who post on this message board are not those people. |
