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Topic: Wright vs Wrong
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| Printingman | Posted – 4/29/2008 1:25:19 PM | show profile | email poster Is there a difference between Obama's relationship with Rev. Wright vs McCain and the GOP's relationship with the likes of Fallwell? |
| keltoi2 | Posted – 4/29/2008 2:44:46 PM | show profile Ah, but Falwell's supporters live on, and McCain is sucking up to them. And Pat "God will strike down Disneyworld" Robertson, who McCain has kissed up to, is still knocking around. And this from from Cenk Uygur at youngturks.com: Let's not forget McCain backer Reverend John Hagee has called the Catholic Church the "Great Whore." He also said that the Anti-Christ will rise out of the European Union (of course, the Anti-Christ will also be Jewish). He has said all Muslims are trained to kill and will be part of the devil's army when Armageddon comes (which he hopes is soon). John McCain continues to say he is proud of Reverend Hagee's endorsement. Reverend Rod Parsley believes America was founded to destroy Islam. Since this is such an outlandish claim, I have to add for the record, that he is not kidding. Reverend Parsley says Islam is an "anti-Christ religion" brought down from a "demon spirit." Of course, we are in a war against all Muslims, including presumably Muslim-Americans. But since Parsley believes this is a Christian nation and that it should be run as a theocracy, he is not very concerned what Muslim-Americans think. |
| catlondon | Posted – 4/29/2008 3:03:36 PM | show profile McCain, as far as I know, is not a member of any of the congregations of the clergy that people like to point at. Sen. Obama has been a voluntary member of Rev. Wright's congregation for 20 years. That's the difference. Sen. Obama aligned himself with Rev. Wright for whatever reasons spiritually and visibly many years ago. Certainly in a country built on the separation of church and state, a candidate's religious beliefs should be explored. If Mitt Romney were a Warren Jeffs/FLDS Mormon, his campaign would have a far different story--in fact, there wouldn't have been a campaign. I'm sure Sen. Obama never dreamed that this man he respected, for all his incendiary rhetoric and very human faults, would turn on him for his own media gain. The Rev. Wright's recent media appearances are damaging to Obama and are another example of what happens when principle meets self-interest--principle often loses. However, it probably is giving Obama a bit of insight into what it's like to be married to Bill. |
| keltoi2 | Posted – 4/29/2008 3:24:18 PM | show profile I think it's more vital to know who a candidate turns to for political support, not what church he attended. McCain is sucking up to right wingnuts with appalling views for political gain. No one can accuse Obama of being affiliated with Wright for political gain; the angry reverend has probably sunk Obama's campaign because of a very simple equation in America: Angry White Man: good for winning elections Angry Black Man: bad for winning elections |
| catlondon | Posted – 4/29/2008 3:30:32 PM | show profile Actually, Obama has been accused of being a member of Wright's church for political gain. Wright's church is highly visible and highly influential in the neighborhood where Obama sought to both establish his credentials as a black man and begin his career. I'm surprised you didn't know that. |
| keltoi2 | Posted – 4/29/2008 3:56:30 PM | show profile It may work in Chicago but it sure doesn't work nationally. |
| keltoi2 | Posted – 4/29/2008 4:27:00 PM | show profile Well, saddened but not surprised to see the race card being played all around. Sharpton is an opportunistic blowhard who would do everyone a favor, inclusing his fellow blacks, by spending less time in front of the television cameras. |
| keltoi2 | Posted – 4/29/2008 4:36:52 PM | show profile As for the other names, Eric, I'm not going to waste my time. They've been done to death on this BB. |
| chucho | Posted – 4/29/2008 5:02:29 PM | show profile It's not just Falwell. Rev. Hagee is a nut. And McCain welcomed his endorsement. |
| UGoGirl | Posted – 4/29/2008 11:17:58 PM | show profile Printingman, that's a surprisingly intelligent question, and makes one wonder. Hmmmm.... Maybe.... But I heard an intelligent interview with Wright on Bill Moyer's Journal program. Wright actually has some substance to him, not that I can fully appreciate his perspective or necessarily think his style is heplful. Fallwell? I don't thinks so. Watch/listen to this printingman... tell me what you think. Is Wright the opposite equivalent of Falwell? http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04252008/watch.html http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04252008/watch2.html |
| keltoi | Posted – 4/30/2008 12:44:46 AM | show profile I think the Democrats are once again succeeding in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. First is the politics of destruction on Obama that the GOP does so well--not from McCain's camp directly (or so it seems; he's nicely "above the fray")--but from the Republican attack dogs of Fox and blather radio and their ilk. Bill and Hillary contributed to it as well in the name of "winning" at all costs and helping the GOP in the process. And yes, Obama brought some of it on himself by not disagreeing enough with a guy who, family friend or no, shoots his mouth off too much. I'm not ready to write Obama off yet, but Wright has seriously, perhaps irreparably for this election, damaged him. And I think the Democratic party has once again trashed their chance of winning a White House that should have been theirs. If Hillary somehow squeaks in with the popular vote, or worse, grabs the superdelegate vote against the popular will, the Dems can kiss the White House goodbye for at least 4 more years. Because, short of a stunning collapse of the McCain campaign, Hillary will not win the White House. |
| Queen Kong | Posted – 4/30/2008 4:00:17 AM | show profile When Obama chose Chicago as his political arena, he had no Black credentials. He was a born in Hawaii, grown up in Indonesia, Harvard educated intellectual, child of a university educated middle-class White woman and African foreign student from Kenya, that was raised by White grandparents. Other than his mixed skin color, he had no other recognition of ties to the Black American community. He calculated his chances of political advancement and deliberately chose the most Afro-centrist "church" in Chicago to create an 'I'm-Just-Like-You' Black persona and plant the seeds needed for a career that would depend on the support of Chicago's African-American political system. He desired, he asked and he received. Then when he decides that he's good enough to run for president of the United States, he pushes his pastor and mentor -- the same person who helped him get and keep his bearings within the Black community -- into the shadows. If you want to put your finger on precisely when the Jeremiah Wright/Barack Obama stew began to boil, you need to go back one year to March 2007. That's when the New York Times was first to report on Wright's reaction to Obama's decision to distance himself from him: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/us/politics/06obama.html Maybe it's true that Obama wasn't physically present when Wright's sermons contained the inflammatory, unscrupulous comments that his supporters have tried to explain away as being out-of-context soundbites -- but it it implausible to expect anyone to also buy the story that he did not HEAR about them through the grapevine of TUCC congregants who were present during those and other non-videoed sermons. |
| Queen Kong | Posted – 4/30/2008 4:21:03 AM | show profile > Printingman Posted ? 4/29/2008 1:25:19 PM | Is there a difference between Obama's relationship with Rev. Wright vs McCain and the GOP's relationship with the likes of Fallwell? < The "No" answer: Both McCain and Obama play and exploit the religion fiddle for opportunity and political gain. The "Yes" answer: Obama chose to be a member of Wright's congregation, used Wright's influence within Chicago's African-American community to advance his political aspirations, and made Wright his "mentor" (how Obama defined their 20-year relationship). Whereas for McCain the likes of "Falwell" have not been his confidants or conciliators. |
| chucho | Posted – 4/30/2008 6:09:44 AM | show profile WHat's wrong with you people? As was pointed out Falwell is dead. Why do you keep saying "the likes of Fallwell". You don't even know what you're talking about becuase you can't even name a name! At least learn the names of the people MCain has openly WELCOMED as endorsers. If you're gonna rant about Wright, at least know the name John Hagee. John Hagee is the head of a crazy Texas Church that believes Jews are exempt from believing in Christ as the son of God. (Which is anathema to mainstream Christianity. Nutty Revelations says 144,000 Jews are part of some special seal with God, but otherwise what Hagee is doing is promoting US foreign policy issues related to Israel, which makes him a pulpit politician who has re-interpreted the New Testament in order to further his agenda. Hagee, a millionaire leader of the Global Evangelism Television and the Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, leads that nutty Texas movement that believes Jews must inhabit Jerusalem before Christ will return. So they raise w hole lot of money and send it to Israel, which is fine by me except for the church's non-profit status and Hagee's formidable self-enrichment. He is openly calling for an immediate pre-emptive attack on Iran. He believes that the New Testament commands that the US should back Israel. He preaches to thousands of Texas Jesus Freaks that don't know crap about Middle East that Arabs have never been legitimate inhabitants of Palestine ""Someone who didn't know better could imagine from the very name Christians United For Israel - CUFI -that pastor John Hagee speaks for all Christians. Well, he doesn't... What these fellows have forged is a close connection between the White House and the religious right." -- Bill Moyers Haggee has called Catholicism a "Godless theology of hate". Rabbi Eric Yoffie has called Hagee a religious extremist. Hagee has said Harry Potter is modern day witchcraft. And John McCain said recently: "I welcome his endorsement." |
| HyancinthGirl | Posted – 4/30/2008 8:55:59 AM | show profile To shift a bit, I do find it curious that Obama would be singing a different tune now that Wright is hurting his campaign. It truly angered me to hear that he's NOW denouncing the man for statements he made years ago, things we all heard weeks ago but apparently Obama overlooked at the time when he was defending him. |
| astrahook | Posted – 4/30/2008 11:51:06 AM | show profile I think its bad news not only that he aligned himself with this guy, but now he is distancing himself in a weak manor. Call the guy out and show some cajones. Someone said it best, the democrats have figured out how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Candidates aside, the DNP is not half the oiled machine that is the gop |
| Printingman | Posted – 4/30/2008 1:02:32 PM | show profile | email poster Ugo, haven't had the chance to go to those links, have much work this week and not much time but I will. Would like to chime in on the fact that Obama only now has denounced Rev Wright when it's the opportune time for his campaign to become President of the United States. What happened the last 20 years when he was married to Michelle by Rev Wright and his daughters were baptised, has Rev Wright only now, this week become more radical in his views? Too many questions and too much overgrown brush in the flower beds. With all of the Clinton's baggage. At least it's all out in the open. Hillary by far the best candidate. As far as McCain goes, Although he seeks the endorsements of the right wing nut job pastors, he hasn't attended their churches for the past 20 years and I doubt he is much influenced by them. |
| PluckyPane | Posted – 4/30/2008 1:34:17 PM | show profile very very good points about obama and wright. i hate to say that it matters, but it absolutely has to. gop is much more cohesive, although they weren't always. once they finally pushed the last of dying moderate republicans out a few years ago, they were now free to be as right wing as they want. the mccain spin with these religious zealots will be spun this way: mccain is accepting money from those who support them, which will be consider so much worse than dems pandering for votes to poor people and unions. |
| chucho | Posted – 4/30/2008 1:43:37 PM | show profile >> 20 years and I doubt he is much influenced by them. << I agree that McCain is one of those cynnial Republicans that seeks support of the religious fringe groups and then betrays them when he takes office (because most Republicans know better than to try to outlaw abortion, albeit they might be happy to stack the Supreme Court and let the court do it). But one important difference is that McCain embraces these endorsements. So either he's the type of politician to betray the groups that get him into office (not a good characteristic for a politician) or he will do what he needs to do to keep them just happy enough (since they have no other options anyway). But when it comes to Rev. Hagee's views on the Middle East, he and McCain are on the same page. So what it boils down to is whether the American voter is willing to risk a military showdown with Iran. Americans that are willing to risk this, and Americans that are PRAYING FOR IT, are likely to vote for McCain. I don't think Ameirca can afford another Iraq, especially when we haven't completed the missions in the other two wars. And if you think oil prices are high now, want and see what happens when we start bombing infrastructure in Syria and Iran. But back to the main point: McCain openly embraces men like Rev. Hagee. Obama has this albatross of having attended this church. As far as I'm concerned I'm willing to risk dealing with the black liberation theology question than I am about having a cynical manipulative Republican using the evangelical religious right to get power. I happen to think that Obama is not going stack the White House with black liberation theology ideologues that are going to tell America that the white man created AIDS -- I think it's possible for a man to attend a church and not agree with his pastor. I do, on the other hand, think McCain will stack the White House with the kinds of people that agree with Rev. Hagee's views on the Middle East -- and I think that diving into another bloody quagmire in the Middle East is a much greater danger than whatever fears one might have about Obama's choice in pastors. PS: I disagree witht eh idea that Hillary is a better choice because all the dirt is "out there". The fact it, the right0wing peanut gallery will go to great measures to re-hash these issues and turn it into a five-month blitz that could blow up in the face of the Dems. We have people on this very board who think Hillary's husband is a murderer and rapist. I suspect that despite Wright, Rezno and Obama's "elitism" (an accusation tossed out by super rich right wing elitist media wonks) is nothign compared to what the right-wing peanut gallery will do with Hillary. In the end, however, it will all be for naught. I am fairly confident that the Democrats are going to win big this time. The damage inflicted by this administration is too big to overcome, and the poll and fundraising numbers are squarely in the Democrat's camp, as far as I can tell. -- Especially the fundraising numbers, where Obama is way ahead of Hillary and both Dems are WAY ahead of McCain. |
| catlondon | Posted – 4/30/2008 6:34:54 PM | show profile The DNC has already targeted McCain with two ads that have aired nationally. One about his economic stance and the other targeting his statement that we could be in Iraq for a 100 years. I know the RNC is hopping mad, especially about the Iraq ad. You can see them on its website, www.democrats.org. |
| Queen Kong | Posted – 4/30/2008 11:40:20 PM | show profile > chucho Posted ? 4/30/2008 6:09:44 AM WHat's wrong with you people? As was pointed out Falwell is dead. Why do you keep saying "the likes of Fallwell". < What we have here is a failure to understand language usage. Some of us who make a living with the English language to convey stories and messages understand the meaning of the phrase: "the likes of Falwell". Those who only communicate in terms of blunt objects, no nuances, just black-&-white dialog, have no use for creative license. From: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage [The likes of] is a common phrase, first recorded more than 200 years ago, which in current speech and writing has two principal uses, both of which are standard. In one of its uses, it has a single object, often a pronoun, and it typically carries overtones of disparagement: "Why should [the likes of] you come here?" "...who castigates his favorite grandson for ... marrying [the likes of] (name) .... " "Don't want to be connected with [the likes of] him ...." In its other common use, the likes of has a multiple object in the form of a list of names, and its meaning is "such people as" or "such things as." "... it's too bad that [the likes of] (name) ... got caught up in it ...." "Turning their backs on [the likes of] (names) ...." "...goblets and bowls coveted by [the likes of] The Smithsonian and The Metropolitan Museum of Art. |
| Queen Kong | Posted – 4/30/2008 11:49:34 PM | show profile All things considered, there is one thing about Jeremiah Wright that I give him kudos for: he has not changed his opinions, his posture, or his determination because the national spotlight has been cast on the substance of his preachings. He is today the same minister with the same attitude he had last week, last month, last year, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, and 20 years ago. The only person who has done an about-face when the temperature degree became boiling hot is: Obama. |
| noname1234 | Posted – 4/30/2008 11:57:17 PM | show profile How do you know how Wright has changed or not changed over the last 20 years? What research have you done into his ministry to make that evaluation? |
| Queen Kong | Posted – 5/1/2008 12:43:15 AM | show profile I have a very close friend who is a UCC minister. I also know other members of UCC. Furthermore, it's already being discussed outside of theological circles. Lastly, if you watched the entirety of his appearances at the NAACP and the National Press conference you saw the exact same firebrand you see in the DVDs of his sermons (and not just the :30 segments the general public has been exposed to on YouTube and cable news programs). Seek and you shall find. |
| HyancinthGirl | Posted – 5/1/2008 1:09:24 AM | show profile Ugh. Politics are exhausting me instead of exciting me this year. I think we should forget about the candidates and worry more about who will be their running mates. After all, if one of the three dies in office (ya know, stoke, stray bullet because some group is pissed off) I'm going to be really concerned with the VP's politics. If Bush suddenly died, we'd have Cheney. Shudder to think. |
