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Topic: I'm about to lose my cool!
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| Homer | Posted – 5/21/2008 7:52:02 PM | show profile I just went to the careerbuilder.com site through the LA Times, narrowed the media search down to writer/editor, and 7 pages of jobs came up across the country. Good ones, too, and lots of variety for experienced and not so. |
| seeattleme2 | Posted – 5/21/2008 10:52:23 PM | show profile Homer: I know three people with top positions in HR at two top media companies in NYC. You would know them. Those job postings are published for many reasons, many of which have nothing to do with seeking a candidate. Top publishing companies often post a job title and position to see 1. what kind of response they get... 2.what kind pf resumes they get 3. what kind of pool such a job will attract, salarywise and experience wise and 4. to do their jobs. Finally, 5. as a way to gather material to send out to lists LIKE career builder, monster, etc with email addresses and demographic information that will allow said responder or "click inner" to be spammed with advertorial. Not to say jobs are never found through these web sites, but come on. You're missing the point: THIS INDUSTRY SUCKS! It IS harder than ever before. For many reasons. have you beenreading Ad Age, Editor and Publisher, Folio magazine? Print is DOWN. Down in double digits. Down. Huge companies are laying off employees and offering buyouts in the hundreds. Print is struggling. Network is struggling. Hell, even the internet is struggling. So let these poor young people vent and "whine" (I prefer the term "protest" or "criticize". They have every friggin reason to. Not to mention the planet they're inherting from us older generations. Hope y'all enjoyed your AC. As for rents, I have said it once and I will say it a million times, yes, there are deals to be had on every corner of the planet, but they are few and far between. Read recently in which a colleague of mine was talking aout her rent-controlled $850 a month one bedroom in Chelsea she lived in while working at super cool super hip low paying teen mag. WHAT SHE NEGLECTED TO MENTION AND WHAT I KNOW FROM HAVING WORKED IN A CUBICLE NEXT TO HER WAS THAT THE APARTMENT BELONGED TO HER AUNT BEFORE SHE MOVED TO FLORIDA AND THE LEASE WAS PASSED ON TO HER> I can't force people hear to tell their real stories. But I believe anyone who tells me renting an apartment these days is hard, a lot harder than it used to be. And --from someone who grew up in Foster care and had parents barely available for conversation, let alone emergency money -- it was fucking hard then. With the credit crunch and the housing market going apeshit, and corporate laying off and print dying--yes, children, DYING--it's gotta be harder now. That said, I still say the answer is to go to a regional mag in a devloping urban area. But I'm adding that is tough. and it may take a few years to save enough money to even get a sublet with a psycho. Took me two years. And finally, I want to add I am suspecting this post is fake. |
| mkelly | Posted – 5/22/2008 7:37:29 AM | show profile Here's a job posting that looks great for a newbie: http://www.journalismjobs.com/Job_Listing.cfm?JobID=927347 And I don't know about the conspiracy theories others have floated here, that big HR execs post jobs that don't really exist just to see who answers-- but I'm willing to bet this one is legit rather than something from the X Files. Except the part about good salary, of course. Actually, I really don't have much more to add to this thread. I just want it to set a new record for postings on this board-- which I believe is 284, in a discussion about the underground D&S sex scene in New York. Come on, BirdWord and SeeattleMe, let's rally for the cause!!! |
| HyancinthGirl | Posted – 5/22/2008 8:24:22 AM | show profile I'll add two things to this post: presentation and salary requirements. I've been hiring for the same EA position for 6 months now. We've hired two already who have quit because of the hours. The "talent" that is graduating from college is downright frightening. Misspelled cover letters, extraordinary salary requirements, and general laziness are what come my way. Out of dozens of cover letters and resumes, I'll get maybe two candidates who follow directions. Cover letter, salary reqs, and resume in Word. Send me a form cover letter, you get vertical filed. A cover letter is not simply saying that your resume is attached and you look forward to speaking with me. I put "attention managing editor" in my ads. Those who bother to look at my website and see who the ME is and address accordingly already have the leg up. That was the first test. If you want a job, don't tell me why your mother loves you. Sell yourself to me. Tell me why I should hire you. Convince me that you will hit the ground running and why you shine over the other candidates. Don't tell me you worked on your college yearbook for 3 years. Tell me you were helped to reduce yearbook printing costs by 20% or your during your internship, you actually learned more than just how to order coffee at Starbucks. Salary. Goodness. Don't tell me that you want to make $35K-$40K as an EA. No. And don't give me the generic "It's open to negotiation." Give me a realistic range, which tends to be $28K-$30K. Not a fair salary? Go become a nurse. Don't like the hours? Go be a teacher. You work hard for your $28K, next year you'll be making a better salary. Lastly, there are no excuses for poorly spelled cover letters. We're not using typewriters anymore. Spell check is free and often automatic. And don't give me that crap about most brilliant writers are bad spellers. Part of the job is editing. Use spell check. It's "editing" not "editting". It's "definitely" not "definately". Call me old fashioned, but if you can't put together a basic, simple business letter after 16 years of school, I'm not about to hire you because the career services office failed to teach that to you. There are hundreds of cover letter books out there. Get a library card and quit whining. I know searching is a full-time job, but put yourself in the place of the hiring person. It's your first impression, so why not take a little extra time to find out more about your potential employer? If I can't figure out why you are a good candidate within 20 seconds of reading your cover letter, then you have no chance of working here. |
| Decorama | Posted – 5/22/2008 9:55:51 AM | show profile Salary requirements If you know what you can offer, why do you ask for applicants to state their salary requirements? Just to weed out those with hyperinflated expectations? |
| caitlinkelly | Posted – 5/22/2008 11:11:30 AM | show profile HG is pissed, and I can see why... But, to play devil's advocate (and I'm not weeding through all those atrocious resumes/letters nor am I seeking an EA spot), what is so egregious about asking for $35k? Even if they "know" the going rate is $28K. It's $7,000 more than what you offer...so, if they're an amazing candidate, bring down the offer to $32 and split the difference. The outrage that they DARE to ask beyond the "norm" is less a reflection on their ignorance and sense of entitlement -- **perhaps** -- than a generation told since birth they can get what they want. Read "Strapped" and understand how much tougher the world seems to them, certainly financially, if only with student loans. And $28K appears unlikely and insane to probably all their non-journo pals and their parents, even if it's exactly what you have to offer. A new hire starting at $28k and working might not get a raise or promotion for years. What if your mag is sold or ad revenues tank? Any smart student of this industry knows, more likely, that budgets will be frozen or cut and they, and/or their boss, might lose their jobs. So, however annoying or unattractive, it seems only common sense to try for the highest possible salary coming in because, for some, this new job might not even last long enough to qualify for unemployment. It might be that there is much greater (?) job security for those earning $28K than those making $45 or $65K...forgive me, if so, for not knowing that end of the job market. |
| HyancinthGirl | Posted – 5/22/2008 12:23:21 PM | show profile Forgive me for sounding harsh. I am based in the Northeast, but I am hiring for our sister publication based elsewhere with a much lower COL. The candidates have access to very good schools, but the COL is significantly less in this part of the country. The going salary of $28-30K is rather decent. And the following year the salary usually goes up to $35K. It's not bad considering the average rent here is $500 for a two bedroom, with no state income tax. Where I'm based in NJ, that salary would be hard to manage, no doubt. But the job is not in NJ or NYC. I will, of course, makes exceptions for exceptional candidates. But candidates who demand that their starting salary be $40K with a horrendous cover letter and a mediocre resume without even a hint of past experience has become the norm around here. Getting hired is about selling yourself. Give me a reason to want to hire you. I won't coddle this generation, no matter how much their mothers, teachers, and professors did. We have lowered our standards with hiring and the people didn't work out because they didn't like the hours. One we fired for excessive cell phone use. We're supposed to be the professionals who have an outstanding ability to craft information for our readers. EAs should be able to spot simple spelling errors when presenting themselves to a potential employer. Speel badyl all u want on a bbs, btu not in a cover letter. This has been a tough year. The EA we hired last year was promoted, and in many ways I wish we hadn't. He seems to be the tail-end of the college kids who want to roll up his sleeves and work. Maybe my hiring model is outdated by today's standards. But if college is not teaching young adults how to write cover letters and act like professionals, how can I expect that they know everything there is to know about journalism with that magic BA, drawing a salary my Assistant Editors make? |
| Grateful Deadline | Posted – 5/22/2008 12:35:06 PM | show profile Bless you, Hyacinth. And caitlin, I can answer that salary-request question from my perspective, taking some of the burden off HG, because I also dealt with it the same way in a past life. The reason *not* to consider a candidate expecting $35,000 when you have $28,000 to offer is because that person will not take the job or, if they do, will not be happy with it. Hiring costs considerable time and money, and there's no reason to take a chance on hiring wrong. Certainly an entry-level candidate can ask for 25 percent more than a position pays -- there's no law against it -- but to do so is presumptuous and doesn't bode well that this will be a trouble-free employee. Years ago, I saw a figure for how much it costs to hire a new employee. It was higher than anyone who doesn't hire might suspect -- over $10,000, if I remember correctly. I've never seen a figure for the cost of a bad hire, but I can tell you that hiring the wrong person can be like tossing poison in the well. You see ramifications as an editor or supervisor that you never know about or pay attention to as a coworker. Quick note to seeatleme: Please try to respect that the reason we disagree is not because we're stupid, old, out of it or lying; it's because what we know is different from what you know. No amount of demanding in capital letters that we say we see three fingers when we actually see four is going to change this. The beauty of a board like this is that you can gather first-hand information from places where you don't live. |
| detour_memphis | Posted – 5/22/2008 12:40:31 PM | show profile HyancinthGirl is Right & Wrong at the same time!! Right - in that the spelling/grammar stuff needs repair. Wrong - in hiring style. Young folks coming out of these factory colleges are very different now days. HyancinthGirl you will have trouble finding someone. Your style is sooo old school. If you were in the Mid South, the folks would eat you alive. These folks coming out want big money, a easy day, two-hour lunches, and unlimited cell phone/My Space time. |
| consider | Posted – 5/22/2008 12:50:56 PM | show profile I agree 100 percent with Hyacinth. And I'm a child, really, myself. At my last job, I was promoted quickly because I worked 60 hours a week, and I was good and my clients liked me. (The company owner didn't, but he wasn't a writer, just a deceitful hustler-there's already a thread on this.) So I had to hire my own EA, because the workload was just too huge. God, what a nightmare. I got 50 resumes from kids who thought they were special. I interviewed dudes who hadn't bathed, ladies who came an hour late and thought it was fine, and one girl who had the audacity to come in sporting a slinky satin top, red and see-through, with very slutty and prominent lingerie underneath. The candidate I finally selected turned out, in retrospect, to be a poor choice. We were offering 21K/year. This is very good where I live. It wasn't enough for him, so we bumped him up. But then, the trouble compounded. He was in GRADUATE SCHOOL FOR TECHNICAL WRITING -- and in a prestigious program, at that -- and routinely turned in articles with one or more of the following mistakes: -incorrect facts -misuse of its/it's; too/to/two; their/there -sentences without predicates -egregious run-ons -no ledes, no conclusions -editorializing I pointed out his mistakes, and he would whimper. Asked me if I was going to fire him. Called me after hours and asked for praise. Flooded my inbox with e-mails begging for status reports. Eventually, I was told to let him go. So I did. The next day, his mother called the office. I wish I were kidding about all of this. And I am in 100 percent agreement with my elders. I feel bad about the economy. I think this year's class got a shit deal, and I am angry that they have so many loans to pay off, which is serious shit, and which seriously affects the job choices one makes after graduation. But there's NO excuse for bad work and bad behavior, no matter how old you are. Guess I'm an "old soul." |
| onmyown | Posted – 5/22/2008 1:02:07 PM | show profile Applause! I agree with HG and the rest. Having a tougher time finding a job and paying off student loans is no excuse for laziness. Too many times young people dash off a story and don't even look at it a second time, let alone run a spell check. You can easily tell. Words are spelled wrong, punctuation is missing, on so on. This has nothing to do with some of us being old codgers--it's the job, people!!! We write and edit!! And writing articles the same way you text or write on BBS does not cut it. Neither does an entitled attitude. |
| WordyBird | Posted – 5/22/2008 1:21:13 PM | show profile HG, what's the most outrageous demand you've seen? When I worked for a non-profit and we were recruiting for a departments editor (mostly FOB stuff), we received a lot of "mid- to upper-50s," a few "low 70s," one or two "low- to mid-80s" and one cheeky young lass went right for the six figures. We passed that letter around just for the laugh. |
| mkelly | Posted – 5/22/2008 1:31:21 PM | show profile HyancinthGirl, I think I love you. I'd never work for you at those salaries, but I think it's love at first post nonetheless. |
| caitlinkelly | Posted – 5/22/2008 1:55:16 PM | show profile I don't dispute any of HGs demands for excellence. I wonder how much luck she will have finding the candidates who meet her needs. |
| beenthere | Posted – 5/22/2008 2:04:22 PM | show profile As far as nonprofits go, my experience is that they want tons of experience at no cost. I recently applied to a job I was qualified for and sounded appropriate to my experience level, but I did not include salary requirements when I submitted my res and cover letter. I was contacted via e-mail and asked to submit my salary requirements. I answered in an appropriate salary range--again for the job's description and my experience and education level, which they had directly in front of them--and never heard back. I was definitely not asking for an over inflated salary, it was actually a little less than I am getting now. I am finding, more and more, that salaries seem to be dropping. I recently saw a position for an exec ed. that wanted five years experience, two at the exec ed. level. Are you kidding me? Who the hell reaches that level THREE YEARS out of college? As far as sloppy applications, there is no excuse. Poor salaries, however, are an entirely different matter. Employers should understand you get what you pay for. I feel, a lot of the times, they simply want cheap labor. |
| foodlit | Posted – 5/22/2008 3:39:09 PM | show profile I fully agree with HG too. I've been on both sides of the desk, as internal hr and the majority of the time as an external recruiter...in both instances, I've been amazed at the volume of bad resumes that come through...in general, something like 97 out of 100 resumes has at least one typo on it, but for an editing/writing job it is just ridiculous, spelling errors on the resumes and in the cover letters. And to the other poster who suggested that companies regularly post positions just to see what comes in... That is so off base. To think that we want to look at even one more resume than we need to? No. Whenever a position is posted anywhere, we tend to be overwhelmed with resumes, the vast majority of which are not even close to a fit for the job, and we have to wade through all the clutter to get to the few that are. This is actually another reason why you could apply for a job and be absolutely perfect and then mystified why you never got a call.....because the hr person never got through enough of the clutter to get to you. Sad but true...and a key reason why it's so important to follow up any emailed resume with a phone call two days later...so you don't fall into the resume black hole. |
| beenthere | Posted – 5/22/2008 3:46:11 PM | show profile My company routinely does this. Each department has to be reassured that no one is getting fired whenever they do this, because, invariably, an employee will find the ad. _______ And to the other poster who suggested that companies regularly post positions just to see what comes in... |
| blackberry143 | Posted – 5/22/2008 3:47:47 PM | show profile HyacinthGirl (correcting your misspelling) I find the sanctimoniousness of HyancinthGirl troubling when she misspells her own screen name. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Furthermore, I regret to inform you that the business model has changed for the better. Baby boomers like you are scared that we will take your jobs--which we will sooner rather than later--so you make us "college kids" run an obstacle course to get a low paying job. $28,000? Are you kidding? This generation is working smarter, not harder, so we actually have lives. It's unfortunate that you will be obsolete in a few years, wondering how to make the bills by working at WalMart, while I own your job. |
| detour_memphis | Posted – 5/22/2008 4:00:15 PM | show profile Damn blackberry143.... You said what I was thinking...the "old school" people are mad now!!! Blackberry143 you are making that little business suit really tight on some of these old HR timers. LOL!! |
| detour_memphis | Posted – 5/22/2008 4:03:18 PM | show profile Anyhoo.... Salary is another issue - $28,000 is peanuts but you have to start somewhere. In my present position I started at about $23,000. My boss was stupid and dumb. I came in with fresh ideas, a new way of running the department, and a drive to bring a old company into the 21st century. I was humble and I got the raises I deserved. Now I run the department. |
| WordyBird | Posted – 5/22/2008 4:20:26 PM | show profile "As far as nonprofits go, my experience is that they want tons of experience at no cost. I recently applied to a job I was qualified for and sounded appropriate to my experience level, but I did not include salary requirements when I submitted my res and cover letter. I was contacted via e-mail and asked to submit my salary requirements. I answered in an appropriate salary range--again for the job's description and my experience and education level, which they had directly in front of them--and never heard back. " Yes, they pay less. Generally 10K to 15K less than private sector for-profits. BUT, the benefits more than make up for it, methinks. Usually they offer tons of vacation, personal, and sick time. I started with 3 weeks vacation, went to 4 after two years, plus 3 personal days plus 12 sick days. You could carry over all but the personal days. The health coverage was excellent, too. Plus, not for nothing, but the environment was about 4,672 times better than corporate America. We had flex-time, and no one really cared which hours you worked as long as your work was done well and done on time. There was no clock-watching, people understood the meaning of "work-life balance," I NEVER worked overtime or on weekends, and although non-profits do need to raise money, there were no shenanigans like those being discussed on the "Trade Publications" thread. Advertising and editorial staffs were completely separate and we had complete editorial independence. Plus, the people were cool. From what I can see, non-profits draw a certain crowd, usually those interested in the cause for personal reasons. That creates a certain atmosphere where people are vested in their work and tend to look more outward than inward in terms of fulfillment and satisfaction. The joke is, "Hey, we're not doing this for the money." Until a few organizational shake-ups a couple of years ago, turnover on the staff I worked with was unheard of. The most junior person was there for almost 7 years before she left, and everyone else had between 9 and 16 years in. I read all the horror stories from the cut-throat world of for-profit publishing, and lived a few myself, and if I hadn't personally needed the change of relocation, I might have stayed a lot longer where I was, or moved to another non-profit whose mission I cared about just as much. It's a career choice and a lifestyle choice, like any other. |
| caitlinkelly | Posted – 5/22/2008 4:32:39 PM | show profile OK, guys/gals, is this not officially THE longest MB thread ever? |
| beenthere | Posted – 5/22/2008 4:35:47 PM | show profile wordybird, I understand the difference, But when there is absolutely no explanation of benefits--and every time I include salary requirements, I add the disclaimer "is negotiable depending on benefits offered"--how is the applicant supposed to know? In this case, I listed specifics, such as hours worked, overtime, vacation, medical benefits, along with other job responsibilities that would be factored into salary. Still no response. They just wanted someone cheap. It's back to the same argument: Employers know what they can offer employees, so be straightforward about it and then there will be NO misunderstanding as far as candidates selected for interview. As an applicant, I'm throwing darts blindfolded. |
| HyancinthGirl | Posted – 5/22/2008 4:59:06 PM | show profile First off, Hyancinth is my maiden name. Take up the misspelling with Ellis Island. Blackberry143: I'm not a Boomer. I grew up using a computer *gasp* and designing my own websites, too. Too bad the OP does not have your drive or he wouldn't be here complaining about not having a job after 2 years. I'm don't think I'm being unrealistic. I'm asking you as newbies to spell correctly. To learn from others. To take an ok salary with the potential for a better salary once you prove to me you give a shit about your profession. Do you expect a great salary with fabulous hours that are less than 40? Start your own publication and don't come to a media board whining that no one will hire you. What you fail to realize is I want any new EA to succeed, which is why I am strict with my hiring standards. A lazy job seeker is likely an unmotivated employee. It reflects badly from the bottom to the top. It's our jobs to be professional writers, so don't convey "I'm lazy" in your cover letter. Use some of that snappy "new" technology us old folks don't know nothing about. I'm also hard on newbies because, by your own admissions, college is not preparing you for the workforce. You want to be a writer or an editor, who do you expect to learn the basics from? I welcome the fresh ideas and new ways to do things, but if college is failing you all soooooooo miserably, then you're going to learn how to report and compose correctly. Creating a personal blog or a MySpace page is not the same thing as real publishing/reporting work. "Definately" is still incorrect no matter how many times you type in on your blog. Your first year you should be hungry for knowledge. You learn from us, we learn from you. You need a foundation. Finally, I will say it again: I want you to succeed. It makes me as a manager look good, and generally that job of mine that you're taking is because I vacated it after my promotion. |
| PluckyPane | Posted – 5/22/2008 5:42:19 PM | show profile lol and bravo, hyancinth. didn't we all think our bosses were stupid and slow, and that we knew how to do it 100 times better? |
