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Topic: Help me avoid another crazy office (MOVED)
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| Write_or_Die | Posted – 8/13/2008 9:23:04 PM | show profile I'm an editor/writer and I'm very tired of my office. Actually, I'm borderline miserable there. It's time to move on and I'm trying hard to find a new gig. Meanwhile, we have a new hire who is quickly discovering she now works in Crazy Land, where nothing really makes sense. Jobs look so much sexier from the outside. So, I wonder how I can really tell that I'm interviewing for a good job or just replacing someone in the 7th layer of hell? I want to find a place that doesn't suck or a role that makes it all worth dealing with. Anyone have advice on signs to watch out for, or tips on getting the real scoop on an office before you start? BTW, MB message boards warned me about my current job before I took it, so I know about this resource. |
| joyeuxnoelle | Posted – 8/14/2008 4:27:48 AM | show profile | email poster Someone told me once to ask the person(s) who interview you if they are happy working for the company. Of course no one is going to admit that their company is the 7th Layer of Hell, but sometimes the interviewer will stumble long enough to let you read between the lines. I've asked variations of this question -how would you describe the company culture- and gotten telling replies. Good Luck. |
| foodlit | Posted – 8/14/2008 10:06:33 AM | show profile Another good question to ask people you meet with is, "is the culture/working environment here what you expected or a bit different once you came on board?" That's a great open ended question that should give you plenty of info, both by what they say and how they say it. |
| WordyBird | Posted – 8/14/2008 10:38:12 AM | show profile Ask about turnover. Find out how long people have been there, and how it breaks down among the different levels. Keep in mind that there's always going to be turnover at the entry level--unless people get promoted from within, which would be a good sign. But if no one but the owner and his family or senior management has been there more than a couple of years, that could be a sign that it's a mill. Find out what happened to the last person in the job, too. How long was the person there? What was the person's reason for leaving? Look around at workspaces as you're led through the office. Do people have pictures of their friends and families on their desks? Is there a little bit of clutter--desk pad, pen holders, folders, papers, maybe a plant or a few toys from a Happy Meal? That may indicate that the person occupying the desk has been there a while. (And yes, toys. At my best job ever, everyone had everything from Beanie Babies to figurines on their desks--some a little bit TOO much, but I consider it a good sign if someone displays a little bit of fun.) Oddity: Some years ago someone published a study about Dilbert cartoons. The more Dilbert cartoons there were in workers' cubes, the more dissatisfied they were with their jobs. Putting the comics up served as a passive-aggressive swipe at management. And finally, listen for clues during the interview. I learned this the hard way. During one interview, the guy said, "I don't want to keep hiring assistants." I should have run away then and there. Turns out he had something like eight people in that position in a year. He also had the nerve to e-mail me at home a week before my start date and ask me to look at a project. (That would be a "no." I don't work for free.) A week later, I was temping somewhere else. |
| Cyrus | Posted – 8/14/2008 4:30:45 PM | show profile It's hard because no one really tells the straight dope when they interview you. Even if you talk to people who would be your peers, it's not like they'll generally cop to working for a hellish company, for several reasons. For starters, nobody relishes admitting it since it makes them feel stupid for being there and because they may very well just be looking to get out as soon as they can; given that, they don't really want to attach themselves to the company any more than they have to. Bottom line is that a job/company that has relatively low turnover is often a good place to work. If you see a company cycling people through faster than water runs out of a faucet, that says a lot. Also, by their very nature, small businesses are often a tough place to work because managers will often be tasked with doing things that aren't a good fit for them. Also, entrepreneurs are often inherently not very good at managing people because they're really idea oriented, not necessarily people oriented. It's rare that a company's fabulous to work for, although there are a few that stand out. To me, it's more realistic to expect a company to admit the downsides of working there. ------ Cyrus Afzali Astoria Communications www.astoriacomm.com |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 8/14/2008 4:56:10 PM | show profile Write_or_Die You don't by any chance, work for a non profit in Boulder, CO do you? |
| Write_or_Die | Posted – 8/15/2008 9:07:35 AM | show profile < Haha! I don't work in Boulder, but I guess there are plenty of people like me out there. I reached this point after three years at my last job, and that was a great job when I look back on it. Thanks to everyone for the advice. These are all good questions that I wouldn't be sure it's OK to ask. I'll keep them in mind as I network and meet people from places that seem like a dream job. At the end of the day, I think one employee's personal hell could be another employee's dream job. But some environments are simply toxic and can derail your career. That's what I'm trying to avoid. |
| Circ-u-lator | Posted – 8/15/2008 9:35:05 AM | show profile I once interviewed for a job at a major business magazine and was fully prepared to take it if they offered it to me. They had me do the HR interview last (I was an internal candidate so things flowed backwards somewhat in this case), and everything was going well and I knew they were going to make me an offer. As we were wrapping things up, the HR person mentioned to me that they had very low turnover with the exception of the department that I would be working in. She didn't say it as a warning or anything, just almost mentioned it casually but that was enough for me and I turned it down when they did make me an offer. So see what you can get out of the HR person, they will often be a lot more honest with you about the job and department you are going for. In my experience, I have found that the "feel" that I get during an interview is exactly how the job turns out to be. I interviewed for a job many years ago where the person I'd be reporting to kept me waiting in the lobby for like a half hour and periodically ran by and said "I'll be right with you!". Sure enough, the job was chaotic and I was miserable. That's just one example but it applies to every job that I have had. The mood/vibe/feel/whatever you want to call it that I experienced during the interview is exactly how the job turned out. I wouldn't ask the person interviewing you if they are happy at their job. I honestly don't know anyone who would say "yes" to that question without hesitation. |
| WordyBird | Posted – 8/15/2008 10:11:27 AM | show profile "In my experience, I have found that the "feel" that I get during an interview is exactly how the job turns out to be." Good point. With the fellow who sent me an e-mail a week before I started asking me to work on a project, I knew he was going to have no respect for my personal time. Come to think of it, when he wanted to set up a second interview, he wrote to me at home at 5:30, and when I didn't respond (because some of us have lives that includes dinner with our boyfriends), he wrote again from another account at 9:30. Looking back on it, I see that he was a spoiled brat. Hmmm, he was an entrepreneur and this was a small company, too. Go figure. |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 8/15/2008 11:28:33 AM | show profile Write_or_Die- Your situation sounds exactly like that of a place I worked for two years (the non profit in Boulder and in another town near Aspen---don't want to divulge too much info here-- I was asking you about). I would advise you to trust your instincts and gut-level reaction when you interview for a position. When I went to work for the aforementioned place, I was so excited to have my move paid for back to Colorado, I really didn't care all that much about what the job was. That was my first mistake. When I interviewed, I deluded myself into thinking it was a good place with hard-working, although pretty odd and out-of- touch-with-reality people. In my first week on the job, my fears were solidly confirmed and I thought "Oh! What have I done?" The place was/is full of egomaniacal ivy-leaguers who would have a difficult time managing in the outside uncloistered world of business (where I am now and couldn't be happier!). There were a handful of 'normal' people that I clung to and made good friends with. That's the ONLY way I kept my sanity there. There were impossible demands; I would have to do projects 50 times because 'swoopers' (those not initially involved in the project) were always coming in and deciding to make incessant, nit-picky, uncecessary changes (everyone was on their own little power trip!), they would call me at home all hours of the night and while I was on my VACATION and even on the chairlift on my day off, and just generally make life a '7th layer of hell'! Eventually, they decided they would be better off financially if they outsourced my position along with several others' positions, THANK GOD! That was the best thing they could have done for me. I'm SO much happier to work with honest, hard-working, professional, profit-minded, and well, KIND people with no hidden agendas. Ahhhh, relief! What's really disturbing now though is that I hear the crazy non profit is now looking for another person like me to come in house. I guess they discovered outsourcing WASN'T that great of a deal, afterall. Duh!(yeah, real smart people...not). Anyway, I would REALLY like to warn the next person who would consider taking that job in the beehive-inside-the-rat's nest but don't know how to go about it. I pity the foo' who takes that job. Anyway, sorry for the diatribe but seriously, TRUST YOUR GUT INSTINCT...it NEVER fails you! Don't let a paid move back to a place you love, a basic belief in what the organization is doing, or anything else sway you. Listen to that inner voice. I mean REALLY listen to it and good luck! |
| laprgrl | Posted – 8/15/2008 11:37:41 AM | show profile another interview story with a crazy office I was living in LA at the time and had an interview with an entertainment pr firm. I have never heard of it but I figured I'd give it a try. When I arrived I walked in the door and there were boxes,clothes, and magazines ALL OVER THE FLOOR it literally looked like a tornado ran through there. I then met with the publicist for an interview. He mentioned that he needed an assistant for the owner. Which he described as "a very difficult person to work with" he proceeded to tell me that they have a hard time keeping people there and have had 2 assistants in the past 6 months. He also said she doesn't take no for an answer and that she may act like your friend but really isn't and that at the end of the day your just an employee. By the time he got the second sentence out of his mouth I knew this was going to be a nightmare. All he did was vent about his boss and asked if I was still interested.. I was shocked when he asked me the question so I said uh sure."knowing full well I wasn't going to take the job. about 2 days later he called me and asked me to come in for a second interview. After thinking this through I decided what the hell I'll meet her and then decide. So I set up the interview. About 45 minutes before my interview she calls me to reschedule because she's tired and was out all night at an event.. so I said ok. the next time I am supposed to meet her she calls me an hour before I am to meet and says she had something come up and wanted to reschedule again. So needless to say I never returned her phone call and I thought to myself if she's being this inconsiderate when I'm not even hired then it really will be a nightmare working there even if it is just for a paycheck. I decided I would rather wait tables than work for someone like that. I should have taken the warning from the publicist on how the office environment was. I wonder how the new assistant likes her job with the "devil wears prada" |
| bjoconnorfla | Posted – 8/15/2008 3:09:12 PM | show profile My worst job, almost 10 years in hell. The warning signs: - Interview for one job, then offered the other out of the blue, with no discussion of the publication I would be editing. No critique, no story ideas, no "what would you do" discussion. Surprise! When I started to change things they pulled the rug out from under me. - Replaced someone who left on maternity leave, who they praised to high heavens. Hmmm ... they love the old editor but the product sucks. Major disconnect, shows that they value personality and the ability to keep your mouth shut, work long hours and put up with bullshit rather than doing quality work. - Also, staff of psychos. Didn't know it at the time, but I was hired to "clean house." When I asked, they said there was maybe 1 problem employee. Again -- disconnect. Publication doesn't read like crap because the staff is so great. - Biggest warning -- They make the offer, we agree on salary, vacation, start date, etc. I ask for a letter with the details spelled out before I will give my notice at my old job. WEEKS go by, I leave msgs w. the editor who hired me, she doesn't call back and I finally have to call her boss to get the damn letter generated! Watching for similar signs has kept me from taking what would have been some truly horrible jobs. |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 8/15/2008 3:39:45 PM | show profile Holy cow! That's amazing. How do these places stay afloat with this kind of crap going on? |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 8/15/2008 3:39:46 PM | show profile Holy cow! That's amazing. How do these places stay afloat with this kind of crap going on? |
| WordyBird | Posted – 8/15/2008 4:36:35 PM | show profile Honestly, CD. I wonder how these places stay in business, myself. We could have a thread called "Worst. Job. Ever." but there are so many bad ones how could we quantify one as the worst? |
| mkelly | Posted – 8/15/2008 4:41:17 PM | show profile For the record... It's the seventh circle of Hell, not 'layer.' |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 8/16/2008 12:36:28 AM | show profile 'layer', 'circle'...who cares...the 'sediment' is the same;) |
| bjoconnorfla | Posted – 8/22/2008 12:06:40 PM | show profile Lesson learned A thought on how these places survive: A lot of us, esp. in our younger go-getting years, naively believe that we can be the person to make that crappy publication work, we can rock that FOB stuff, kick butt w. the city hall coverage of the lousy weekly, pull together the design and production at that small daily. And then we kill ourselves trying to do it, only to find that the owner/manager doesn't want to change anything, doesn't want to spend a dime more, doesn't want to deal with letting the difficult people go, doesn't want to delegate authority, doesn't want to stop screaming and abusing underlings and issuing contradictory edicts without a moment's thought, and basically make sure to defeat any attempts at improvement with all kinds of insecure, psycho reasons that ignore business reality or even decent standards of professionalism. Don't fool yourself. There are a LOT of smart writers and editors out there -- you are not the only one. If thise shop can't attract a few of them sane and stable enough to do a decent job, that is a BIG warning sign. You are not the miracle man or woman who "can finally make this place work." There are good newspapers, good magazines and they are not hard to pick up on a newsstand and at least copy. There is no reason for a publication to be assertively bad and stupid unless assertively bad and stupid people are running the show and, on some level, want things to be that way. You will not change them, but they will drive you crazy and do serious damage to your confidence and self-esteem. Been there, done it, again and again until I learned: don't try to save a sinking ship. Now, at nearly age 50, I was recently recruited for a regional mag. editing job that would have paid great and involved launching new titles. Then the samples came. It was so astonishingly bad and wasteful as to defy belief. I could swallow three copies of old Saturday Evening Posts and puke a better magazine. And there was no way it was by accident, that the staff wasn't a bunch of boobs, newbies and losers or that the owner ever had the slightest clue. I passed on the interview, told them the thing needed to be scrapped and rebuilt from scratch, to forget about adding new titles until the current one was fixed, andthat if they wanted a consultant, they could call me -- which I know they won't. But 20 years ago? I shudder to recall that I probably would have been calling U-Haul, giving my notice and jumping at that "great opportunity to show what you can do." |
| keke23 | Posted – 9/11/2008 1:07:03 AM | show profile | email poster This is definitely a tough one because a lot of times the staff and management seem normal and friendly and then turn out to be gossip queens. I would ask them what they want out of an employee or what they think of work/life. Man, it is just so hard, though. I almost wish jobs could have travel runs.. or a day in the life of before uprooting your life. |
| keke23 | Posted – 9/11/2008 1:07:58 AM | show profile *trial runs. |
| JimmyG | Posted – 9/11/2008 11:56:38 AM | show profile As Yogi Berra once said (or words to this effect), "you can tell a lot, just by looking." Look deep into the eyes of the people you pass in the halls. The deader the looks you get, the more evil the working environment will be. Does anyone smile at you or give a passing "hello?" Are people socializing, either in one another's offices/cubicles or in the break/liunch room if you happen to see it. Is the office dead silent, or do at least hear the occasional chuckle? As another poster said, look for personal touches in offices and cubes--the more you see, the more flexible an employer will likely be. I'm not saying every office should be party time 24/7, it's just that there's always trouble with companies that try and run creative departments like they had a room full of accountants. On the other hand, if you're the reserved and disciplined type, you might want to avoid office environments that are too loud and loose for your style of work. I worked in such a place and some people just couldn't handle it. And pay heed to small signs in an interview. Throwaway lines like "we work hard here and are proud of it," or "our people take the time necessary to get the job done" often means that not only will there be overtime, it will be expected, whether you have sufficient work to fill the time or not. "Many of our employees move here from out of town" or "our employees socialize with one another here in the office on weekends," often means that the company likes to hire people with no immediate connections so they will spend as many waking hours as possible in the office. I once worked for a publisher actually relished the fact that they worked their editors to death and burned them out at a staggering rate. I recall someone telling me that if you went home at 5 pm, then you must not be doing your job. Also, if possible, try and track job ads to see how often a position is being filled. If you can search a database for this info so much the better. It's actually a good idea to keep an eye on the want ads even if you're not looking for a job, just to see how many times some positions come up so you can avoid them later. |
