Mark Penn, Burson-Marsteller CEO and former campaign advisor to Hillary Clinton was on WNYC’s Leonard Lopate Show at Noon to discuss his book Microtrends, now in paperback.

Lopate covers everything including the definition of a microtrend (something that reaches 1%, or 3 million people) and examples of products and ideas spreading this way–and how microtrends have changed since the financial downturn. I.E., the middle class is now empowered with information while the “elites” including Bernie Madoff’s clients are particularly susceptible to branding.

They also go over the fight with Rachel Maddow of MSNBC, Penn’s defense paraphrased as: don’t conflate the deeds of the clients with the firm itself.

Related: Hillary Clinton Finishes Paying Off Campaign Debt, Last Check Goes to Mark Penn

Burson Proves its Digital Chops with Two Forms of Proof